International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Onur]

Zimbabwe is no superpower, its armies are as symbollic as Macedonia's army. But Zimbabwe is in the middle of Africa and all the africans support it and that's how it survives. Where's Macedonia in the middle of ? And even if a war starts in the end it will be Macedonia and Macedonians dying, its easy for the people from the other part of the world risking wars, but what about the people in Macedonia ? Not that I'm saying something bad about diasporans but please.... a war is going to be deadly only to Macedonians in Macedonia.

Imagination, i wont try to talk about every different factors in Balkans cuz this is a quite complicated issue about strategy which involves many elements like economics, politics etc.

I can say this tough if i try to summarize it;
Balkans are in relative peace atm as a result of the weird balance created after Balkan wars and WW-1. This weird balance makes Macedonia`s population or the size of it`s army as irrelevant. Because, if Greece takes one step further, then she finds Turkey, Bulgaria, Albania blocking her way. If Bulgaria tries to take one step further, then she immediately finds Greece, Romania, Turkey blocking her way. This is same for every Balkan country. So, if an incident occurs in Balkans, it can be destructive for anyone, regardless of their manpower or the size of their army. So, this equals for every country, not only for Macedonia because of it`s relatively weaker army comparing to Greece or Bulgaria or lower population then others.

[Risto the Great]

Totally agree Onur.
And I will stress that Macedonia calling itself Macedonia would never be the reason for war in the Balkans.

[makedonche]

Totally agree Onur.
And I will stress that Macedonia calling itself Macedonia would never be the reason for war in the Balkans.

RTG
And if by some unfortuneate miracle it does turn out to start a conflict - then what better reason do you need than to defend your right to self determination!

[Vangelovski]

what a stupid man you are

Is that your latest argument to "delay" Macedonian self-determination?

[Volk]

Is that your latest argument to "delay" Macedonian self-determination?

How about you leave my opinions for me to express, they do not need to be warped and twisted out of your mouth.

Do you still believe that Macedonia needs to declare the 'framework agreement' null and void and withdraw from the 'negotiations' simultaneously?

Why stop there, lets reclaim Aegean and Pirin Macedonia as well as Prohor Procinski tomorrow... or are you a traitor and think we should "delay" the freedom and end the percussion of our people?

[Vangelovski]

Volk,

I believe we should declare the Interim Accord (with Greece) null and void immediately. That will have the effect of both reclaiming our national sovereignty (in terms of us determining our own affairs) and withdrawing from the negotiations. I also believe that the Framework Agreement (with the Albanians) should be reversed.

Maybe you would do better to "express" your views if you knew what you were talking about.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do you still believe that Macedonia needs to declare the 'framework agreement' null and void and withdraw from the 'negotiations' simultaneously?

I do, absolutely. What are you proposing, we wait another 20 years?

Why stop there, lets reclaim Aegean and Pirin Macedonia as well as Prohor Procinski tomorrow...

A childish and unrealistic analogy that belongs in a kafana discussion.

[Volk]

I believe we should declare the Interim Accord (with Greece) null and void immediately. That will have the effect of both reclaiming our national sovereignty (in terms of us determining our own affairs) and withdrawing from the negotiations. I also believe that the Framework Agreement (with the Albanians) should be reversed.

Great, now focus on the crucial term, do you believe this should be done simultaneously?

I do, absolutely. What are you proposing, we wait another 20 years?

And you think Macedonia can deal with both fronts at the same time right?

Quote:
Why stop there, lets reclaim Aegean and Pirin Macedonia as well as Prohor Procinski tomorrow...
A childish and unrealistic analogy that belongs in a kafana discussion.

Not at all... Are you claiming the injustices done to our people in the occupied territories is excusable or defendable?

The point of the matter is, everything needs to be a step by step approach, planned and prepared for.

Its very easy to scream do this and do that when there is no planning in place to deal with consequences.

[Soldier of Macedon]

And you think Macedonia can deal with both fronts at the same time right?

What fronts? What are you talking about? What will happen when these two 'fronts' are opened? Stop scare-mongering and make your point.

Not at all... Are you claiming the injustices done to our people in the occupied territories is excusable or defendable?

I am making a distinction between realistic and unrealistic achievements. Your analogy suggests that you have a problem with making such a distinction.

[Vangelovski]

Great, now focus on the crucial term, do you believe this should be done simultaneously?

Volk, it is more than obvious that you prefer the status quo, though it is not immediately obvious why.

Why not start the process immediately? What do you think the "pressures" would be if Macedonia did? Why do you think someone like yourself, that is so susceptible to "pressure" should even be involved in such matters of national importance?

[Volk]

What fronts? What are you talking about? What will happen when these two 'fronts' are opened? Stop scare-mongering and make your point.

I am making a distinction between realistic and unrealistic achievements. Your analogy suggests that you have a problem with making such a distinction.

SOM & Tom,

are you trying to convince me and the readers here that if Macedonia withdrew from the name talks & declared the 'framework agreement' null and void simultaneously, there would not be any consequences to Macedonia besides the utopia your trying to imply?

There are many scenarios that could arise, but the least likely one is the utopic Macedonian society you are dreaming of.

Do mean to tell me the international community aka our overlords, would accept such a move, does Macedonia have the military industry (we do not even manufacture our own bullets anymore) to deal with a conflict if there was a arms embargo imposed (like in 2001)?

Can we break the greek-albanian alliance (this is the two fronts), what will the bulgars do in such case...

Or is analyzing possible scenarios (that have all happened before) 'scaremongering' and unrealistic?, whilst your completely blind and non existent outlook is the light? Give me a fucking break and open your eyes.

Facts:
- Majority of the population supports EU and NATO membership
- The albanians are waiting for the right time to break away
- EU and NATO ( which now surrounds Macedonia ) fully backs greece against us.

Based on these facts outlined we need an approach (that achieves our goals) that covers all threats, because otherwise your just pissing in the wind without as little as a thought.

[Volk]

Volk, it is more than obvious that you prefer the status quo, though it is not immediately obvious why.

Why not start the process immediately? What do you think the "pressures" would be if Macedonia did? Why do you think someone like yourself, that is so susceptible to "pressure" should even be involved in such matters of national importance?

The process should commence immediately, just not as a simultaneous move as you have so ignorantly called for.

[Risto the Great]

- Majority of the population supports EU and NATO membership
- EU and NATO ( which now surrounds Macedonia ) fully backs greece against us.

Then what you are saying is that the majority of the Macedonian population is retarded!

[Volk]

Then what you are saying is that the majority of the Macedonian population is retarded!

The majority of the population refuses to accept that they need to rule themselves and should stop dreaming of some EU induced paradise.

[Vangelovski]

Volk,

Are you trying to imply there will be war if Macedonia were to declare the Interim Accord null and void and reverse the Framework Agreement? On what evidence are you making this idiotic prediction? Have you actually understood what these agreements are (thereby understanding the necessity and justification for such action)?

P.S. Do you know the difference between the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement? Did you know they are two separate agreements? You seem to be using them interchangeably...