U.S. position on Macedonia

[Risto the Great]

fyrOM, you are a slave of the worst kind.
Are you posting on this forum because you have to? Is someone making you do it? You clearly have no free will whatsoever. Stand up on one foot and hop up and down right now. It is a command.

You pathetic little boy. I note you didn't respond to the fact your leader (Grujo) already committed to changing the name. Proof is more than evident. You would follow him to he end of the Earth because you are a compliant little slave. Go boy.

It is getting cooler here in Australia now. Remember to tuck your singlet into your underpants in case your back gets cold. But you get told that every day I am sure.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I find it pathetic you threatening me for simply stating a fact which you seem not to like.........

It wasn't a threat, it was a fact. Continue to spread anti-Macedonian propaganda here and you will be shown the door. If you feel that strongly about it ('it' being anti-Macedonian propaganda), perhaps you should search for another forum where such garbage will be more palatable to the general membership.

[makedonche]

It is a dismissible offense regardless if I think it is or not - but to answer your question, yes I do.

Every chain of command - be it government, military or business - exists on the respect of your superior and cannot function if there is no clear command structure - not everyone can be equal if the integrity of the structure is to be maintained.

The most important thing is the integrity of the structure because if the leader says we are doing 'this' and literally anyone can say we are doing 'that' then who is to be followed? You have just destroyed the chain of command which can have dire outcomes.

This situation was not war but by disrespecting the authority of the Prime Minister the offender undermined the position of The Office and by doing so made his position untenable and dismissal is the Only option. Tolerating descent diminishes the power of The Office in the eyes of both internal and external people.

Vangelovski Post014


Exactly the words of dissent, rebellion and depending on the extent - treason. It's not the first time in the history of people that disagreement with the leader has happened and those who act on it either become the new leader or get fired, jail or die as the case may be but it does not mean the leader has No right to take action and must tolerate all dissent - his position will always be in question.

SoM Post015


See SoM, by the first sentence you were confused and by the second you were starting to get it - but not close enough - no cigar!
Try it in the army and see how far it gets you - a stay in the brig!
It doesn't matter what I think - this is the law/rule - this is how it is in the world and whether or not you like it is irrelevant! I find it pathetic you threatening me for simply stating a fact which you seem not to like...and in your statement there's the authority of the king and despite your avatar having something on its head like a crown, close enough is not good enough and your not king, so grow up and take a look at what's in the world. It's just there - I didn't make it.

See, now if this were a government,military or business for saying my post in public (no matter that my post is ABSOLUTELY right, mind you) and disrespecting an office I would be up for reprimand - phew!...lucky for me it's NOT! Stop behaving like a tin-can god and threatening nilly-willy and show some professional respect to your position - I was simply stating a fact.

RtG Post017

Is your eyesight failing, old lion - The Leader is still there - Sieg Heil!
I just don't know if it's SoM or Gruevski or who?

OziMak

So why wasn't the same rationale you are advocating, applied to Reeker on one of the many occasions he was in breach of his diplomatic regulations? Why is he still in Macedonia? Do the rules of the chain of command only apply to Macedonians? Let me see you apply some of your analogies to the questions I have posed here - demonstrate your logic in explaining to me and the readers here why a Macedonian foreign policy ministerial advisor has to lose his job for actually doing his job , and why Reeker can get away with denouncing the sovreignity of a country and not face similar consequences or in fact any consequences.

[indigen]

fyrOM, you are a slave of the worst kind.
Are you posting on this forum because you have to? Is someone making you do it? You clearly have no free will whatsoever. Stand up on one foot and hop up and down right now. It is a command.

You pathetic little boy. I note you didn't respond to the fact your leader (Grujo) already committed to changing the name. Proof is more than evident. You would follow him to he end of the Earth because you are a compliant little slave. Go boy.

It is getting cooler here in Australia now. Remember to tuck your singlet into your underpants in case your back gets cold. But you get told that every day I am sure.

I think you, SOM, Vangelovski, and the rest of the ENLIGHTENED ones on MTO are finally (his turn has come after other distractions) hitting the target (i.e. questioning "airtime" and role played) in your take on this, IMO, very politically dubious character.

1. Ефтим Гашoв: Македонcки непoкop
YouTube - Ефтим Гашoв: Македонcки непoкop

1. An Eftim Gashev (a political prisoner in SFRJ) interview condemning the Georgievski Government (of which Gruevski and Miloshoski, amongst others, were part of and never once openly (or otherwise) criticised its treasonous actions and policies!) for its anti-Macedonian deals with Bulgaria and its neglect of the Macedonian national minority in that state. It is an INSPIRATIONAL (short) video clip, IMHO!

Eftim Gashov: Za samostojna Makedonija, a ne za Jugoslavija!
YouTube - Eftim Gashov: Za samostojna Makedonija, a ne za Jugoslavija!

Here Eftim Gashev outlines what the Macedonian struggle was about during WWII and directly criticises Gligorov and his role in it.

[Big Bad Sven]

It is a dismissible offense regardless if I think it is or not - but to answer your question, yes I do.

Every chain of command - be it government, military or business - exists on the respect of your superior and cannot function if there is no clear command structure - not everyone can be equal if the integrity of the structure is to be maintained.

The most important thing is the integrity of the structure because if the leader says we are doing 'this' and literally anyone can say we are doing 'that' then who is to be followed? You have just destroyed the chain of command which can have dire outcomes.

This situation was not war but by disrespecting the authority of the Prime Minister the offender undermined the position of The Office and by doing so made his position untenable and dismissal is the Only option. Tolerating descent diminishes the power of The Office in the eyes of both internal and external people.

Vangelovski Post014


Exactly the words of dissent, rebellion and depending on the extent - treason. It's not the first time in the history of people that disagreement with the leader has happened and those who act on it either become the new leader or get fired, jail or die as the case may be but it does not mean the leader has No right to take action and must tolerate all dissent - his position will always be in question.

SoM Post015


See SoM, by the first sentence you were confused and by the second you were starting to get it - but not close enough - no cigar!
Try it in the army and see how far it gets you - a stay in the brig!
It doesn't matter what I think - this is the law/rule - this is how it is in the world and whether or not you like it is irrelevant! I find it pathetic you threatening me for simply stating a fact which you seem not to like...and in your statement there's the authority of the king and despite your avatar having something on its head like a crown, close enough is not good enough and your not king, so grow up and take a look at what's in the world. It's just there - I didn't make it.

See, now if this were a government,military or business for saying my post in public (no matter that my post is ABSOLUTELY right, mind you) and disrespecting an office I would be up for reprimand - phew!...lucky for me it's NOT! Stop behaving like a tin-can god and threatening nilly-willy and show some professional respect to your position - I was simply stating a fact.

RtG Post017

Is your eyesight failing, old lion - The Leader is still there - Sieg Heil!
I just don't know if it's SoM or Gruevski or who?

Ozimak your slave like mentality and devoted loyalty to your "superior" would serve your well in the good old days of yugoslavia when macedonia was a slave to the "southern slavs" or any other communist dictatorship like North Korea or communist Romania were people had no choice but to "follow the leader".

But the communist days are gone for macedonia and macedonians should be able to think freely and have the right to question the "leaders" and politicians of their country - but its slaves with a yugo commie mentality like you that keep holding the country back, too scared to stand up for whats right or what they believe in.

I think this picture below is fitting for you:

[fyrOM]

fyrOM, you are a slave of the worst kind.
Are you posting on this forum because you have to? Is someone making you do it? You clearly have no free will whatsoever. Stand up on one foot and hop up and down right now. It is a command.

I have mind, logic and reason.

The demi-gods smack-down all who show the ability of free clear thinking (I don't just mean me).
SoM Post015...

Expressing one's opinion in the interest of their nation is "overstepping" the mark? Your pathetic apologism will soon come to an end on this forum if you don't cease with your idiotic analogies and bong-induced rants.

All for simply stating a commonly known fact, much like, "In Australia cars drive on the left side of the road."

When I then point out that I am being threatened simply for stating a commonly known fact and that action is inappropriate and unbecoming, I am further threatened,
SoM Post020...

It wasn't a threat, it was a fact. Continue to spread anti-Macedonian propaganda here and you will be shown the door. If you feel that strongly about it ('it' being anti-Macedonian propaganda), perhaps you should search for another forum where such garbage will be more palatable to the general membership.

If you say I have "no free-will" in such a way to mean it is a bad thing, then you must be of the opinion that having free will is a good thing for both Your Self and Your members - RIGHT???

Is THIS (threats for stating commonly known facts) how you encourage free-will in your members???

On the one hand you say you and this site are about FREE WILL and TRUTH yet the moment someone exercises their free will to speak a COMMONLY KNOWN FACT (ie TRUTH definition...a verified fact) which you do NOT like for whatever reason you (collective) threaten the speaker. Do you not see the contradiction there???

Then IF you are about stifling SOME TRUTH, and only permit to be posted what the demi-gods approve, then is this not a form of CENSORSHIP which is a MANIPULATION OF THE WHOLE TRUTH which is a form of PROPAGANDA.

Are you even able to see this??? Are we on the "Macedonian Truth" forum or the "Macedonian Truth Only Approved By The Australian Macedonian Diaspora (demi-gods) Forum". Do you have ANY face left to say anything for yourselves (collective)?

If ALL you want are people to ALWAYS agree with you (collective) then you only want people to be 'Yes Men' which means they have no fee will and mind which means you (collective) want a cheer-squad.

You say I have "no free will", but is my free will the real problem?

If all that is said on this site CANNOT withstand scrutiny on its' own merits, then what real value does it have? If you are genuinely about the truth, then stop censoring the truth - regardless of whether you (collective) personally like that truth or not!! - and stop re-labeling it propaganda (anti-Macedonian or otherwise)!

[fyrOM]

Stand up on one foot and hop up and down right now. It is a command.

You forgot to include, "...now bark like a dog. A little dog. A big dog...", Eddie Murphy - 'Coming to America' - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094898/

It is getting cooler here in Australia now. Remember to tuck your singlet into your underpants in case your back gets cold. But you get told that every day I am sure.

I have Never been told to tuck my shirt in my underpants (jocks) and I have Never tucked my shirt in my underpants and Always though those kids who did were mad.

You seem to know a lot about tucking things in your underpants - do you tuck it back enough.

Civility and professionalism seem to elude some.

[fyrOM]

Ozimak your slave like mentality and devoted loyalty to your "superior" would serve your well in the good old days of yugoslavia when macedonia was a slave to the "southern slavs" or any other communist dictatorship like North Korea or communist Romania were people had no choice but to "follow the leader".

But the communist days are gone for macedonia and macedonians should be able to think freely and have the right to question the "leaders" and politicians of their country - but its slaves with a yugo commie mentality like you that keep holding the country back, too scared to stand up for whats right or what they believe in.

I think this picture below is fitting for you:

Questioning authority is Not the point. There are times and ways to question authority - do it the wrong way or the wrong time and you get fired/jailed/ shot!

Tell your commander in the army other times to go and get stuffed and you could go in the brig - tell him in the heat of battle and you can get shot.

The point you are trying to make is parallel to the point at hand.

[fyrOM]

OziMak

So why wasn't the same rationale you are advocating, applied to Reeker on one of the many occasions he was in breach of his diplomatic regulations? Why is he still in Macedonia? Do the rules of the chain of command only apply to Macedonians? Let me see you apply some of your analogies to the questions I have posed here - demonstrate your logic in explaining to me and the readers here why a Macedonian foreign policy ministerial advisor has to lose his job for actually doing his job , and why Reeker can get away with denouncing the sovreignity of a country and not face similar consequences or in fact any consequences.

I am Not the president of the USA but I can take a guess to try and answer your question.

The USA's position is that they DO recognise Macedonia.
It is also the USA's position that they will recognise any agreement Macedonia makes in the negotiations.
The USA has said they would like Macedonia to be in NATO but accept the current reality due to the name negotiations.
The USA encourages Macedonia to make every effort to pursue the negotiations Macedonia has entered.
Wording it something like,"encourage Macedonia to make a greater effort" to reach a conclusion to the negotiations is not a significant deviation and may well be a directive from his superiors.
By not putting into question his superiors authority he is not in breach of the chain of command.
If he says anything the Macedonian government do not like then it is the Prime Ministers prerogative to summon the Ambassador to explain or to put the Question to the USA government or to ultimately expel the Ambassador.
It is not the position of a Government adviser to do any of the above ahead of his Prime Minister unless clearly instructed to do so by his Prime Minister. This is just how it is - it's not an OziMak thing - and IF a person chooses to be employed in the government then he also makes an undertaking to behave according to the rules/laws set out before him - it's not a choice to follow some rules/laws and not others.
If a person feels they cannot further perform according to the rules/laws before him then he always has the option to resign.
Upon resigning, as any legitimate lawful citizen he can say/lobby/campaign against the leader but not while he is in his current position.

[Risto the Great]

I have mind, logic and reason.

Say it as much as you want. In fact you are a pathetic apologist that represents a cancer to the liberation movement of Macedonia.

When Goce Delcev spoke of a "revolution of the mind", he was talking to slave minded fools like you. The ones who knew it all. They knew how to stop their daughters from getting kidnapped and raped by the muslim Ottoman overlords, they put tattoos on the little girl's foreheads in the shape of a cross. That showed those evil overlords. Their daughters would never be desirable to those pigs once they had been disfigured like that. A win for all ay fyrOM? Have you seen any of those little girls fyrOM, I have ... it scared the fuck out of me when I was a little boy and the last of those "victims" was a 90 year old woman who visited my home. "WINNING" fyrOM?

Macedonia is disfiguring itself every day so it can get the last laugh apparently. I hope you don't have daughters fyrOM, I know, it would mean you would have to have a girlfriend first. Paying for them does not count.

fyrOM, Macedonia will be off Greece's radar once it changes its names and symbols. But you will show them, we will have a flag that is just as Macedonian (albeit Japanese style) and we will always know we are Macedonians. Sound familiar, apologist??

Dumb Macedonians from RoM now say, we change our name to get into NATO and EU, then we show them. Peasants!

The time will never be right for you.
What next?
From you?
Nothing.

[Risto the Great]

You forgot to include, "...now bark like a dog

I wouldn't say that to you. You whine like a pussy so much, it would be a terrible thing to command.

[Rogi]

OziMak,

"I was only following orders" is not a valid argument. Even soldiers are required to make their own moral judgement, sometimes despite a command.

It is not as black and white as you seem to suggest, in any hierarchical structure, with any chain of command, despite what the command is, despite what the 'line' is, the context and reasoning behind any objection is considered.

In the case this topic relates to, the context, reasoning and argument was considered and it was concluded that defending the interests of the Macedonian people and the Macedonian cause, is not acceptable to the Macedonian Government and is an offence worthy of termination of employment and negation. That is the truth, not your contradictory attempt at a philosophical yet black-and-white argument.

[Vangelovski]

That is the truth, not your contradictory attempt at a philosophical yet black-and-white argument.

Rogi, lets not over 'price' fyrOM's nonsensical rant as "philosophical".

[fyrOM]

OziMak,

"I was only following orders" is not a valid argument. Even soldiers are required to make their own moral judgement, sometimes despite a command.

It is not as black and white as you seem to suggest, in any hierarchical structure, with any chain of command, despite what the command is, despite what the 'line' is, the context and reasoning behind any objection is considered.

In the case this topic relates to, the context, reasoning and argument was considered and it was concluded that defending the interests of the Macedonian people and the Macedonian cause, is not acceptable to the Macedonian Government and is an offence worthy of termination of employment and negation. That is the truth, not your contradictory attempt at a philosophical yet black-and-white argument.

Didn't the supreme operational commander on the ground, General Petraeus, nearly get his but canned for ONLY SLIGHTLY contradicting Obama???? Ejjj misli! Didn't he get his ass dragged all the way back to Washington to explain himself and then make his very public 'Mea Culpa'??? Why? Because dissing the leader doesn't count???? Only in the "We have rights -Dang it! Australian Diaspora Land" (by the way you need to take a left at Koo Koo Land and head down the dark alley of some people's minds to get there).

"Concluded" by who???? At first, their initial posts were like they had never heard of a chain-of-command and since it Not only exists in the Government and Army but in business too, it makes you wonder what kind of backward peasants they are Not to have ever heard of it and label it 'anti-Macedonian propaganda' and reason to threaten me. A Fact is Fact regardless if you like it or not!!!

Who gave the dim-wits the right to decide anything they do NOT understand and now make it official 'site policy' and a truism???
In my previous post I said it was like taking me to task and threatening me for simply saying a Fact, much like,"In Australia, cars drive on the left." Now are your telling me their (the dim-wits) interpretation is somehow correct and there was something contradictory in my posts.

Do you think I said one can never challenge an order - check out my posts - I said,"... there is the right place and the right time - do it wrong and you get fired/brig/shot!" EVEN when the motive might be right.

See SoM, by the first sentence you were confused and by the second you were starting to get it - but not close enough - no cigar!
Try it in the army and see how far it gets you - a stay in the brig!
It doesn't matter what I think - this is the law/rule - this is how it is in the world and whether or not you like it is irrelevant! I find it pathetic you threatening me for simply stating a fact which you seem not to like...and in your statement there's the authority of the king and despite your avatar having something on its head like a crown, close enough is not good enough and your not king, so grow up and take a look at what's in the world. It's just there - I didn't make it.

See, now if this were a government,military or business for saying my post in public (no matter that my post is ABSOLUTELY right, mind you) and disrespecting an office I would be up for reprimand - phew!...lucky for me it's NOT! Stop behaving like a tin-can god and threatening nilly-willy and show some professional respect to your position - I was simply stating a fact.

Do you Get It???? It doesn't matter if you were so called 'right or wrong' - do it the wrong way and you are wrong.

[fyrOM]

Rogi, lets not over 'price' fyrOM's nonsensical rant as "philosophical".

Chmips can't understand you either but it doesn't mean your words have no meaning.