Financial Crisis in Greece

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  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    Greece: the next Argentina?
    In a Bloomberg article today, a fund manager is quoted, comparing Greece's current dilemma to that of Argentina a decade ago:

    April 7 (Bloomberg) -- Greece may default on its debt as early as this year without “extraordinary” financial assistance from the European Union and International Monetary Fund, said Stephen Jen at BlueGold Capital Management LLP.

    The challenges facing Greece are similar to those that confronted Argentina, which defaulted on $95 billion of debt in 2001, as the government enacts austerity measures to narrow the European Union’s biggest budget deficit, Jen, managing director at the hedge fund, said today in an interview in London. That may drive the Mediterranean nation into a recession, he said.

    “A default may be ultimately unavoidable,” Jen said. “That eventuality may only be postponed by aid many times bigger than the 25 billion euros ($33 billion) people have in mind.” Any assistance needs to “impress the market,” he said.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2...

    Jen's analogy potentially is a good one. During the 1990s, Argentina linked its peso to the U.S. dollar, at a one-to-one exchange rate which the government promised was fixed forever. Like Greece in the pre-euro days, Argentina had been a chronic devaluer, compensating for domestic iinflation by weakening its currency in order to retain a semblance of international competitiveness.

    Suddenly changing its character to a 'hard currency' country brought several changes to Argentina. For one thing, foreign capital poured in, impressed by the 'one-to-one' guarantee. International credit was readily available. However, in a nation where consumers traditionally had resigned themselves to inferior-quality domestic goods -- since the old, unlinked peso had little external buying power -- the new dollar-linked currency produced a surge of imports, financed by international, dollar-denominated debt.

    Meanwhile, the domestic economy stagnated: it was only globally competitive in agricultural exports, such as meat and grains. The manufacturing sector wasn't even on a par with the neighboring regional giant, Brazil. With the added handicap of a strong currency, it continued to contract.

    As a result of its overvalued currency, the booming Nineties were largely a lost decade in Argentina. Debt-fueled consumption maintained the illusion of economic health, but there was little indigenous growth. When the Argentine economy slid into recession at the end of the 1990s, the authorities found themselves in a hopeless vice. They could not slash interest rates or devalue the currency to boost the economy, because it was tied to the U.S. dollar. But the debt load quickly became crushing if the economy couldn't grow its way out of it. When lenders caught on to Argentina's debt trap and shut off the taps, the economy wilted and the weakest links had to give: the debt servicing and the dollar peg both went by the wayside, in an epic default which ended up slashing the peso's value by two-thirds.

    Like Argentina then, Greece now is trapped within a hard currency regime which suits the needs of a globally competitive exporter, Germany. In most respects, the small Greek economy is not internationally competitive. But having a strong currency has encouraged taking on debt to buy imports. Now the debt load has become crushing; lenders are demanding penalty rates; and austerity measures are cooling the Greek economy.

    The EU, in concert with IMF, has the financial capacity to bail out Greece if it so chooses. But when excessive debt is the problem, piling on more debt is no long-term solution.

    If a bailout doesn't happen, or fails, then in Greece as in Argentina, the weakest links must give: the debt servicing and the currency peg. Once more in the azure-walled ouzo parlours, they'll be serving drams for drachmas. Oupa!
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

    Comment

    • Frank
      Banned
      • Mar 2010
      • 687

      What does this mean Greece will not ever be able to pay its debts and be given another get of jail card

      Comment

      • George S.
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2009
        • 10116

        Well they are well & truly fucked as they will be ordered to sell off it's islands & goodness knows what else is going to be sold.Countries like germany will end up owning greece & greece can say goodbye & forget about name changes.Name changes of macedonia must be the least of it's worries.
        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
        GOTSE DELCEV

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          The EU and IMF already own Greece.
          The question is more about "who can they sell it to?".
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • julie
            Senior Member
            • May 2009
            • 3869

            they can give hell ass to macedonia for nothing they can be our slaves and pay back will be a bitch
            "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

            Comment

            • makedonche
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2008
              • 3242

              3 years is optomistic, when you take into consideration the domino principle on most aspects of their economy, their demise is going to be more rapid, just as their state of financial affairs was substantially worse than what they claimed and subsequently their bailout(which they claimed they didn't need) was greater than they initially said they would need.
              On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

              Comment

              • George S.
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 10116

                well they haven't got the money & allready they may have to sell off the islands.They should adopt their new name pretty soon "HELLASS."
                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                GOTSE DELCEV

                Comment

                • Onur
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2010
                  • 2389

                  For Sale: Greek Islands

                  Shortly before Easter in 2008, Antoine Maalouf arrived at the offices of the Greek Tourism Minister with an unusual request: He wanted to buy a Greek island. The 63-year-old general director of the Monaco-based investment company MMC Group slid 15 billion, in the form of guarantees issued by some of the largest financial institutions in the U.S. and Europe, across the mahogany conference table, right under the minister's nose.

                  Maalouf's idea was simple. He and his investor group would pay 120 million for Patroklos Island -- a barren 1,000-acre strip in the Saronic Gulf nicknamed "Donkey Island" by fisherman -- and construct a Las Vegas-style theme park. It was a short boat ride from Athens, and Maalouf planned to pack it with casinos, golf courses, luxury accommodations for 50,000 people, and a marina for thousands of yachts. The project would employ 8,000 Greeks at a time when the country was hurting for jobs. Donatella Versace had signed on to build a luxury hotel.

                  "All I needed to start was a letter that promised government assistance in overcoming Greece's ridiculous bureaucracy," Maalouf says. "I wanted commitment, an official written commitment."

                  In response, Maalouf claims, Tourism Minister Fani Palli-Petralia said: "The Greek government gives you its full support," and, "you have our blessing."

                  "So, you will give me the letter?" Maalouf repeated.

                  "What?" Palli-Petralia asked him. "You don't trust the government of Greece?"

                  Maalouf says he never got his letter, and his Donkey Island development project died, a victim of the kind of bureaucratic paralysis and institutionalized corruption that Prime Minister George Papandreou is now struggling to bring under control. Greece is expected to owe its creditors 400 billion by 2012, following a bailout of the Greek economy by the European Union and International Monetary Fund earlier this year. Confronted with monthly debt payments of 4 billion, Papandreou, while at the January 2010 gathering of the World Economic Forum, suggested a strategy that ailing companies often pursue when fighting for survival: selling prized assets. The most valuable treasures that Greece has to offer are its 6,000 sun-soaked islands, which, along with luxury properties and other land the government controls, could fetch a healthy premium on the open market.

                  Most of Greece's islands are in private hands, and are valued between 3 million and 150 million. While the government doesn't own them, it benefits from the sales through tax revenue and development, which creates jobs and attracts tourists. As a result, the state is involved in every aspect of any transaction, from authorizing a deal to regulating every detail of who might buy a property and how much they will pay. This puts consenting adults at the mercy of the Greek bureaucracy. Although no sales have taken place since Papandreou first floated the idea, the possibilities are immense. The Ionian Sea boasts Skorpios, the legendary compound of Aristotle Onassis. To the east lie the islands of Spetsopoula, owned by the Niarchos family, and Koronida, the retreat of the Livanos clan. The list goes on. The trouble is that the labyrinthine federal, state, local, military, and religious regulations, decrees, laws, proclamations, and edicts have made it nearly impossible for anyone to sell anything, because no one can agree on who owns what.

                  "Greek islands cultivate more curiosity from foreign investors than discussing our debt-to-GDP ratio with a guy who wants to build a chain of shopping malls with tax breaks on tendered government land," says Mike Vassiliou, director of the Greek real estate firm NAI Global, who serves as an adviser to the permanent IMF monitors now scrutinizing plans to sell or lease state-owned properties to service creditors. What he means is that offering islands might lure all sorts of buyers who could end up making badly needed investments in Greece. "But the government so far refuses to create boutique offerings that attract entrepreneurs and private investors. If you come in with 200 million to invest, the government claims it will help you cut through the bureaucracy. A penny less and you're on your own in the labyrinth."

                  Despite Papandreou's enthusiasm for the idea, actually buying a Greek island is maddeningly difficult. Prospective purchasers often spend more time and money negotiating the ultimate sale price with government bureaucrats than with the property's actual owner. And then there's the challenge of trying to figure out who really owns the land. "Right now there are court battles over land disputes that stretch back to 1838," says former Secretary General of the Greek Ministry of Economy Stratis Stratigis, who once headed the Athens Olympic Organizing Committee and served as legal counsel to Maalouf's bid for Patroklos. "We still don't have a land registry."

                  All non-EU citizens must undergo a further check by the Defense Ministry to ensure they don't pose a military threat to Greece in the event of a Turkish invasion. "The most traumatic transaction in Greece is buying an island," Samaropoulou says. "You're looking at around 2,500 official licenses and permits to conclude a sale. My 60 serious foreign clients interested in buying islands find this amazing and unbelievable.

                  "We estimate the government will put 300 billion of state land on offer, a minimum 15 percent in luxury beachfront and island properties," Samaropoulou continues. "Can you imagine the chaos?"

                  Renee Pappas, a former adviser to Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister Theodore Kassimis and Deputy Finance Minister Doukas, is a founding member of Foreign Investors in Greek Development, a private group whose mandate is to attract foreign capital and guide small businesses through the alien bureaucracy. Over the past eight years, she says, her organization has seen investors wielding 100 million of potential investment capital from South Africa, Switzerland, Belgium, and Australia give up and leave the negotiating table. "Greece is an immature country of bickering children and, like all children, they need a guardian," Pappas says. "Foreign investors interested in state land won't put up with the bribes and political pressures."

                  In 2004 former Defense Minister Spelios Spilitopoulos sensed that Greece might be heading for financial disaster, and decided to calculate the value of all the real estate his ministry held in a bewildering portfolio dating back to the late 19th century. The resulting three-year study yielded an 84-page report, Ministry of Defense Evaluation and Survey of Land, that was delivered to a parliamentary committee in 2007. It listed among its 2,500 properties 30 acres of land on the island of Mykonos with an ocean view, valued at 500 million; a few hundred acres of beachfront property south of Athens near the Temple of Poseidon, undervalued at 100 million because squatters had taken over most of the land; and a 5,000-square-foot penthouse apartment on Queen Sophia Street in Athens valued at 8 million, which was rented to a bureaucrat for 200 a month.

                  Much of the land that the Defense Ministry accumulated over the years was willed to the military by families who wanted to help fight the Turks. These "patriotic donations" continue to this day, and, according to Stratigis, notaries public and attorneys are legally obligated to ask their clients how much they plan on giving to the military in their final wills and testaments.

                  At the same time, Spilitopoulos says, various groups within the defense and other ministries attempted to thwart his investigation in the hopes of leveraging the confusion to wrest property from his oversight and control. The assets of the Greek army, for instance, are maintained by the Finance Ministry rather than Defense.

                  Mon Oct 11

                  http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20101011/...b4199070720737


                  Too bad, they wont let the Turks buy their islands

                  Comment

                  • George S.
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 10116

                    If the greeks self off the islands they can kiss their asses(hellasses)goodbye because there won't be much left.I don't know why greece isn't kicked out of the EU & Nato alltogether as it's not fit to be a member!
                    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                    GOTSE DELCEV

                    Comment

                    • Dejan
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 589

                      What a headache of a country.
                      You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

                      A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        the sooner they do it out of it's missery the better.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • fyrOM
                          Banned
                          • Feb 2010
                          • 2180

                          The Germans are finally learning a thief is a thief. Just because you let him steel for you yesterday doesn’t mean he wont steal from you today.


                          PUMA: You can't do Business in Greece



                          Monday, 01 November 2010
                          German sports equipment giant Puma said on Monday it was writing off 115 million euros (162 million dollars) from its accounts after financial "irregularities" uncovered at a joint venture in Greece.

                          "In total, the maximum extraordinary write-off effect should not exceed pre-tax 115 million euros and does not affect the cash position," the firm said in a statement.

                          "Due to these irregularities and the general market situation in Greece, the company is further planning a restructuring in Greece," the statement added.

                          This restructuring is expected to result in a one-off charge of 15 million euros in the fourth quarter of this year.

                          Puma's joint venture partner in Greece is suspected of "a series of criminal acts" and will have legal proceedings brought against it, Puma added.

                          At 0730 GMT, Puma's shares were the worst performing on the MDax index of medium-sized firms, losing 2.37 percent.

                          Comment

                          • TrueMacedonian
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 3820

                            Greece Just Had Its Patriot Act Moment




                            Greece Just Had Its Patriot Act Moment -- Proposing Special Police Units To Hunt Down Tax Evaders
                            Gus Lubin | Nov. 1, 2010, 10:08 AM

                            Greece is having a Patriot Act moment, drafting legislation that would break down privacy laws and significantly increase police power. But their catalyst is debt, not terrorism.

                            Draft legislation obtained by The Katimerini would create government agencies to regulate tax evasion, entitlement issues and use of public property. Police officers in these departments would have unprecedented power to eavesdrop on suspects' conversations and communications and to disguise their identity in pursuit of a suspect.

                            This would be a major change for a country known for strict privacy laws, according to The Katimerini.

                            And it's another sign that political changes will follow the debt crisis: communism and default or authoritarianism.



                            Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/greec...#ixzz145KJKJqH
                            Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              They have been eavesdropping on Macedonians for close to 100 years now. Nothing new.

                              disguise their identity.
                              They have been doing this for 180 years as well.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • fyrOM
                                Banned
                                • Feb 2010
                                • 2180

                                RoM needs one.

                                Patriot Games.

                                Comment

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