Financial Crisis in Greece

[Spartan]

I agree that it is very bad.
I wont argue that.
However, this does not mean that its the mentality of all the people.
The army instills this hate in their soldiers to be more effective in the instance a conflict breaks out, and Im sure the Greek army is not the only one who employs such tactics.
They are just stupid enough to do it for everyone to hear.

[Mikail]

Yes you are right Spartan. Greece needs to take more notice of European values. I don't believe the war slogans for neighbouring countries still goes on during military parades.

Greece has much to learn from Macedonia

[Bill77]

Completely different scenarios.
The Nazis were in power for a short period of time....we are talking about 1 government and its policies.

Well thank your lucky stars the Nazis were in power for a short period of time. But if you use a amount of time a regime is in power to excuse or classify as "different scenario" in comparing them, rather than the dammage they caused, atrocities they commited, policies for domination and one race creation. Well i possibly gave you to much credit in the past dude. Or you realy hate me now and you are just throwing statements just for the sake of having the last say.

The Turks have always been the enemy of the christian world throughout their entire history....not just a decade.Not just as government policy either, but part of their 'culture' as a people( religion).

But the Turks at one stage were your amigos during the Macedonian uprising. Evan one of your priests felt fiting to bless the Turkish cannons that would kill Macedonians. OK lets look at some facts here, In the times of Turkish Rule, Macedonians spoke there Language Freely, Had there schooling, Free to practice there religion and have church's. Unfortunately though, amongst some other atrocities, select people (not all) were forced to become Turks.

More Facts, Greece Forced not a selected amount of people but all to become Greeks, Until recently Macedonians were not alowed to speak there own language , were not alowed to have schools, are not able to practice there religion and still don't, No Macedonian church available.

Hmmmm bring back the Ottoman's for some democracy in the region ofcourse i don't mean it, But lets put things into perspective here and think about your arguments.

But let me rephrase and highlite your point to see a clearer picture of reality.

"The Greeks have always been the enemy of the Macedonian world throughout their entire history....not just a decade.Not just as government policy either, but part of their 'culture' as a people( religion)"

The Nazis should never be forgiven, and I personally would never forgive the turks.
The Nazis are long gone, so i see nothing wrong with the Germans of today. The turks are still turks.
You can stick up for them, admire them, whatever...it is your choice to do so.
I would die first.

-hmmmm you see nothing wrong with the Germans Today???? but yet just recently your Country asked for retribution from Germany for the Damages the Nazis caused. lol And i am not sticking up for the Turks, just calling a spade- a spade. Its clear that Greece (and Armenians) alone that have the bigest issue with the Turks, and just like in History, again depend on alies and back stabbing to get them out of the holes they dig them selves into. Its true that the Turks violate your airspace, violate your teritorial waters, whent to war with Greeks in cyprus (though i have my own thoughts on who were the real invaders but i will not touch it now) But, Europe are doing or did jack shit to stop it. what does this tell you.

Surely you have forgiven the Greeks for attrocities committed during the civil war by now?

A person, or in this case, a nation, would have to want to be forgiven in order for me or a nation to forgive. Greece would have to admit to the attrocities and stop denying it. Greece would have to acknowledge our existance, by not doing so, is a form of Genicide in my eyes. Greece would have to respect our basic Human rights i don't have to list the basics, you have been around longer than myself here on MTO, i am sure you know what is expected. Only then can someone be forgiven.

And since you feel a time period is important, we are not talking about a decade of human rights denial, but almost a century now.

This is heading to a new level now between you and i. I feel its becoming a bit personal when we often start using words such as "you" and "i"
i have said what i had to say and i am going to move on. You can cary on if you wish alone. But its clear you have issues with Turks but i am sure you are not the type that would not befriend a kind hearted person if you were to come accross one simply because he is a Turk. I like wise with a Greek.

[Onur]

Bill, you have missed the point here.
I am not talking about commercial/passenger flights, lol.
I doubt that would be much of a problem as these planes are unarmed.
I am talking about Turkish FIGHTER jets/bombers/warplanes flying into and violating Greek/EU airspace.
We shouldnt be concerned about this from our eternal enemy?
Wouldnt you?

Well, 1st of all, I want to clarify this so called violation of airspace claims issue by Greece;

Share of the airspace at Aegean sea as accepted by international law and Turkey;
Greece:%35, Turkey:%8.8, International waters:%56

Greece objects this for few decades and accepts the Share of the airspace at Aegean sea as;
Greece:%63.9, Turkey:%10, International waters:%26.1

Greece claims that they should have larger airspace because they got few tiny islands(As small as 1km square without any living creature) close by the shores of Turkey.

This claim never gets approved by any country or organization. So when Turkish jets flies on international waters or on its own airspace, Greeks says "Turks violates our airspace" but ofc no one takes them seriously on this issue. On the other hand, Greek jets tries to enter Turkish airspace occasionally because of their so called bigger airspace where no one approves except Greeks themselves.

Go try to be a Christian in Turkey, tell me how it goes for you.

You are free to practice any religion you want in Greece.
You can even build a mosque if you are so inclined.

Dude, There are about 1 million Christian in Turkey right now and trust me their situation is like 100x times better than Muslims in Greece. Tell me why 1000s of Muslim in Greece protested Greek government in Athens streets last year??? Because Greece doesn't allow anyone to build a mosque in Athens.

Also Greece demolished all of mosques(Arond 160 in whole Greece) after 1930s build by Turks between 15th and 19th century even ignoring the buildings historical values. Thats why there is not even a single mosque there atm even though millions of Muslim Turks and Albanians lived in todays Greece for 500+ years, between 1400s to 1924

If being a Christian is/was so bad in Turkey then why all these people at whole Balkans preserved their language, religion and culture under 550 years of Turkish regime? On the other hand, we saw French and British regime at Algeria, India and some others. They partly assimilated them(by killings millions among them, like in Algeria) only in 50 years and now French or English is their official language. So if French was able to do that in 50 years at 20th century, so Turks could assimilate whole eastern Europe if they wanted to, in 500 years at 15th century but they didn't do that because they didn't wanted to.

You simply judge Turkish Ottoman empire times with 21th century nationalistic mindset. Turks never tried to assimilate any ethnic group because it was totally oppose the idea of being an empire. At those times, having multicultural people and territories as big as possible was the sign of being a true empire. Before the nationalistic beliefs of French revolution, being a Greek, Macedon or Turkish wasn't important. At those times, you were Jew, Christian or Muslim, thats all mattered.

Also if you study history a bit, you can also see that Turks even protected Orthodox belief vs Catholic`s oppression upon them. Without Turkish presence at eastern Europe, probably every Christian would either obey Catholic conversion or just die at medieval times.

[Spartan]

Well thank your lucky stars the Nazis were in power for a short period of time. But if you use a amount of time a regime is in power to excuse or classify as "different scenario", rather than the dammage they caused, atrocities they commited, policies for domination and one race creation.

Its not the 'period of time' so much as it is the difference of how these attrocities happened.
The Nazis were a regime(small minority) who lied to the people(vast majority) in order to commit their crimes against humanity.

It is in the Turk/muslim core to opose christianity.

Big difference.

But the Turks at one stage were your amigos during the Macedonian uprising.

Never mine, or my forefathers/ancestors.
You got the wrong guy.

Evan one of your priests felt fiting to bless the Turkish cannons that would kill Macedonians.

Again, not one of my priests.
wrong guy.
I have no roots in your region.

-hmmmm you see nothing wrong with the Germans Today???

Nope.
Nothing glaring or extreme anyways.

But, Europe are doing or did jack shit to stop it. what does this tell you.

That there was no 'united europe/EU' in 1974.
That NATO means jackshit as both countries were members when this happened.

But its clear you have issues with Turks

I dont deny it

[Phoenix]

mail2onur, welcome to the forum...looking forward to reading more Turkish perspectives.

A interesting comparison between the Ottoman Empire and modern greek regimes...

In 500 years of Ottoman rule in Macedonia, most of its peoples maintained their language and culture.

In less than 100 years of the greek occupation of parts of Macedonia, the vast majority of the population has been stripped of its identity, culture and language, even history itself has been revised.

[julie]

welcome mail2onur, and i concur with Phoenix who is correct, under 500 years of Ottoman occupation, the Macedonian culture and language was able to ne maintained. In less than 80 years of Greek oppression, they have managed to commit cultural and ethnic genocide.

[Bill77]

I am glad you could join mail2onu. Always inportant to hear the second side of a story. I hope you can contribute more often. There is so much history between our two countries.

[Spartan]

Welcome mail2onur

Well, 1st of all, I want to clarify this so called violation of airspace claims issue by Greece;

Share of the airspace at Aegean sea as accepted by international law and Turkey;
Greece:%35, Turkey:%8.8, International waters:%56

Greece objects this for few decades and accepts the Share of the airspace at Aegean sea as;
Greece:%63.9, Turkey:%10, International waters:%26.1

Greece claims that they should have larger airspace because they got few tiny islands(As small as 1km square without any living creature) close by the shores of Turkey.

This claim never gets approved by any country or organization. So when Turkish jets flies on international waters or on its own airspace, Greeks says "Turks violates our airspace" but ofc no one takes them seriously on this issue. On the other hand, Greek jets tries to enter Turkish airspace occasionally because of their so called bigger airspace where no one approves except Greeks themselves.

The Turkish violations only started in 1975.
The Turks and Greeks came to an agreement, in accordance with international law, to how many miles off Greeces most eastern shorelines belongs to Greece. Sometime in the 70s the Turkish government reversed it position on the border, and no longer recognizes the existing one.
I will admit that it is a matter of very few miles, the original set number was 10 n.ms, and now the Turks only respect 5 n.ms or there abouts.
Still, Greek fighter jets are launched daily in response to this, and there are many reports of Turkeys jets violating even their new border, but flying directly over populated Greek islands.
Just google "Turkish air violations" or something.
The list is endless.
Also, wether they are taken seriously or not is irrelevant.
They are still violations of a pre existing agreement.

Dude, There are about 1 million Christian in Turkey right now

Out of what ? 90 milllion ?

and trust me their situation is like 100x times better than Muslims in Greece.

Useless to debate this, but i disagree.

Tell me why 1000s of Muslim in Greece protested Greek government in Athens streets last year??? Because Greece doesn't allow anyone to build a mosque in Athens.

Every group you could possibly imagine that exists in Athens protests.
I also see it as a good thing Athens has held out this long.
However, it wont last much longer.

Thats why there is not even a single mosque there atm even though millions of Muslim Turks and Albanians lived in todays Greece for 500+ years, between 1400s to 1924

There are mosques in Greece.
Ive seen them with my eyes.

Also, where I am from its not '500+', but closer to 350, just to be accurate.

If being a Christian is/was so bad in Turkey then why all these people at whole Balkans preserved their language, religion and culture under 550 years of Turkish regime?

Yes, but the benefits to being Muslim/Turk were so good, to 'not be' in comparison, was pretty shitty. Also, there were numerous attrocities against Christians at the hand of the Turks during the ottoman occupation.

As for present times, I would like to see the numbers of Christians immigrating to Turkey, in comparison to muslims moving to Greece.
If we go by 'percent of total pop', I bet you Greece is winning by a good margin.
Especially in the years to come with this bozo Papandreou leading the way.

Without Turkish presence at eastern Europe, probably every Christian would either obey Catholic conversion or just die at medieval times.

LOL, I guess they did us a favor and I didnt notice, lol.
Personally, Id trade that for the Rennaisance, and the years of the 'enlightenment/knowledge' age we missed out on.
But thats just me.

[BigMak]

in accordance with international law.

mmm Since when has Greece ever done anything in accordance of international law?

a complete and outright fallacy when it comes to greece, Greek officials are on a pedestal they can do or say what they want when they want

[Spartan]

Im just refering to the agreement over the curent border.
It was made 'in accordance with international law'.

I am not saying Greece hasnt ever gone against 'in accordance with International law' .
Im just talking about this issue specifically.

[julie]

Good point BigMak, I missed that one - in accordance with international law

a rhetorical question - since when did human rights and allowing groups their basic human right to self determination and identity cease under international law?
And since when did "democracy" involve cultural and ethnic genocide, under international law.

[Onur]

Thanks for your warm welcome guys.

I found this forum on Google by coincidence and when i read some threads, i was totally surprised by the quality and significance of the messages.

So i am quite sure that there are intelligent people with knowledge of history here


And yes i will try to contribute as much as possible since all my parents are from Balkans(Petrich, in Bulgaria today)



Peace from Turkey

[Mikail]

Nice to have you here mail2onur

[fyrOM]

I know this is in a different thread but this thread is a bit of a pet of mine and I wanted to record related events so that one day when some European is feeling a bit tired and a bit down from working hard for many long hours they might come across this thread and be reminded why.

So they the greeks didn’t fight. Do you have to fight if you can make someone else do it for you.
A great tribute to Greek glory. They lied they cheated and swindled to get from next to nothing to having a relatively high standard of living and an exalted position in western history, forever esteemed as the root of democracy mathematics medicine philosophy and virtually all knowledge and physique and beauty. After all haven’t you heard strong attractive men and woman of any western society as being describe as looking like Greek gods.

Even now the country is broke but the individual people are wealthy. Just check their mattresses or Swiss bank accounts. After all the 600 billion had to go somewhere. Money doesn’t just rot into dust. But be careful if you are checking out their mattresses regardless if you are a guy or a girl as you might find more than you expected. And even now the tricky Greek will enslave the currant generation and maybe the next of European worker slavishly working hard for 8 to 12 hours if not more per day as they struggle to make ends meet as their taxes and the cost of goods rise to payoff the massive funds Europe will need to payoff the Greek debts.

The Greek bravado seems to have no bounds. You would think a country who spent the last 150 years with a sweet suggerdaddy benefactor looking after their every need of which the last 30 years were spent like one long party as if they had taken the stories about 2012 and the end of the world quite literally would now that they were discovered would be in trouble and face severe financial hardship. No not tricky Greek. His solution is to retire 700 thousand workers into early retirement out of a population of 11 million. How many of the 11 million are children or students or unemployed or housewives or already tooold. Remember the baby boom generation. How much does 700 thousand represent as a portion of the work force. Why not do it when Europe is paying. As one Greek was reported to have said you need to be young enough to enjoy retirement.

You try to put the Greeks down. Europe might try to put the Greeks down but how can they when they say themselves the very foundation of their sum worth is out of and due to the Greeks. But its all lies I hear you say. Glory with no honour is no glory at all. Ah but tricky Greek locked in his honour with Europe as well. But its all lies. The short answer to that is so and the long answer is so what. Didn’t your father ever tell you about marifet and snajdise brave strong and industrious Macedonians and Europeans.