Financial Crisis in Greece

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  • Amphipolis
    Banned
    • Aug 2014
    • 1328

    The Greek government will change today, though it's not certain to which direction. The new Parliamentary Majority will also determine whether Prime Minister Tsipras will be replaced.

    Comment

    • Gocka
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 2306

      People who originally voted No on the referendum certainly still feel that way, there's 60% of Greece right there. Then even some of the people who voted Yes originally certainly did not expect the conditions to be this bad, so there has be some Yes voters that now are also against austerity. You could end up with a situation where 70% of the country is against what is about to happen. There is no way any government can hold legitimacy in this kind of scenario. One way or another these measures either will not pass parliament or parliament will not pass. I'm shocked that they European markets are up again, does anyone really think this is a done deal? By tomorrow your going to have mass protests and probably violence.

      I'm starting to wonder if they purposely forced such harsh measures expecting the parliament in Greece to reject them. I find it hard to believe that given everything that has happened that the Eurocrats really believe that the latest proposal has any chance of holding up.

      Can our Greek friend tell us if protests have already begun in Greece? I couldn't find anything on the news sites earlier today, which makes me very suspicious. All that was reported on was the deal and how Euro markets are up. I find it hard to believe protests aren't already going on.

      Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
      The Greek government will change today, though it's not certain to which direction. The new Parliamentary Majority will also determine whether Prime Minister Tsipras will be replaced.

      Comment

      • Amphipolis
        Banned
        • Aug 2014
        • 1328

        No protests yet. This is 10pm of the first day, the deal was announced in the morning. At the moment we wait to see how many MPs of the Government Patries will quit or make a new party.

        We also expect to see if /how the Speaker of the Greek Parliament Zoe Konstantopoulou (a hardliner of NO and also a weird... dominatrix) will be ousted.

        Edit: Actually there was a protest by Rebellion and (resigning) members of the Government Party and its' Youth Organizations.

        ===
        Last edited by Amphipolis; 07-13-2015, 02:52 PM.

        Comment

        • DedoAleko
          Member
          • Jun 2009
          • 969

          I'll put my two cents in some version of a military junta culmination in near future.

          Comment

          • Gocka
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2012
            • 2306

            I think its a long shot only because Europe would probably intervene, at least I think they would.

            Mostly likely there will be new elections and people who are willing to reject the bailout and its terms will be elected. The only worrisome part about that is the only people willing to do that are probably mostly on the far spectrum of both left and right.

            We will probably have a clearer picture by next week.

            Originally posted by DedoAleko View Post
            I'll put my two cents in some version of a military junta culmination in near future.

            Comment

            • Amphipolis
              Banned
              • Aug 2014
              • 1328

              Originally posted by DedoAleko View Post
              I'll put my two cents in some version of a military junta culmination in near future.
              LOL, When you say "some version" of a military junta, do you mean the Greek tanks will enter Brussels and Frankfurt and snatch power? Or, they will have printed drachmas. The Greek banks are closed for more than two weeks now.

              Latest news: The Independent Greeks, the second government party, eventually decides to stay with Tsipras. Of course, some of their MPs will also resign.


              ====
              Last edited by Amphipolis; 07-13-2015, 06:09 PM.

              Comment

              • Philosopher
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1003

                As I have been saying all along, Greece will not leave the Euro or the EU. The EU has made many threats, all kinds of threats in fact, but it is all smoke and mirrors. What is at stake is not a single country like Greece. It is not even the bailout. It is globalization. The EU is a globalization project. The EU is not going to let Greece destroy it.

                The Greek government will accept the bailout terms, regardless of what the average Stavros and Nikos in the streets of Athens think.

                But I will expect an insurrection, even a violent one at that, by the Greek people.

                The only real question is the referendum. What was its true intent? To shift the blame on the Greek nation, and not on the Greek government?

                Comment

                • DedoAleko
                  Member
                  • Jun 2009
                  • 969

                  Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                  LOL, When you say "some version" of a military junta,do you mean the Greek tanks will enter Brussels and Frankfurt and snatch power? Or, they will have printed drachmas. The Greek banks are closed for more than two weeks now.

                  Latest news: The Independent Greeks, the second government party, eventually decides to stay with Tsipras. Of course, some of their MPs will also resign.


                  ====
                  greek tanks to enter Brussels and Frankfurt?! LOL No-no-no.They will run out of gas at Valandovsko brdo anyway. What I had in mind is if things get out of control, leaving no other choice but the army to intervene. It wont be the first time!

                  Comment

                  • Gocka
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2012
                    • 2306

                    I don't think any Greek government that upholds these bailout terms can ever hold up. Unless a full blown dictatorship takes over, Greece will exit the euro. Also I think you have miscalculated Europe. Germany actually seemed as if they were pushing for Greece to exit the euro. Many are even saying that the current conditions being imposed were purposely made to be so unacceptable so as to ensure they are not accepted. This way the blame can be shifted on the Greek people, and away from the EU for not being able to come to an "agreement". They came to an agreement, but the people of Greece will reject it.

                    Basically no one who was at the bargaining table on Sunday wanted to be the party responsible for a Grexit. You think Tsipras wanted this? He just didn't want to be remembered as the guy who got Greece booted from Europe. Hence the referendum, hence accepting last night deal.

                    Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                    As I have been saying all along, Greece will not leave the Euro or the EU. The EU has made many threats, all kinds of threats in fact, but it is all smoke and mirrors. What is at stake is not a single country like Greece. It is not even the bailout. It is globalization. The EU is a globalization project. The EU is not going to let Greece destroy it.

                    The Greek government will accept the bailout terms, regardless of what the average Stavros and Nikos in the streets of Athens think.

                    But I will expect an insurrection, even a violent one at that, by the Greek people.

                    The only real question is the referendum. What was its true intent? To shift the blame on the Greek nation, and not on the Greek government?

                    Comment

                    • Phoenix
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 4671

                      The current greek economic model is clearly unsustainable, this is now the 3rd bailout for these deluded idiots.
                      The problem is when little dogs try and run with the big dogs.
                      Greece will never be a Germany, Britain, France or even Turkey..they can't sustain an arms race with the Turks, they should never have mortgaged the farm to host the Olympic Games...those are the privileges of the worlds powerhouse economies, not the pissants and beggars...

                      Comment

                      • Bill77
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2009
                        • 4545

                        Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                        The current greek economic model is clearly unsustainable, this is now the 3rd bailout for these deluded idiots.
                        The problem is when little dogs try and run with the big dogs.
                        Greece will never be a Germany, Britain, France or even Turkey..they can't sustain an arms race with the Turks, they should never have mortgaged the farm to host the Olympic Games...those are the privileges of the worlds powerhouse economies, not the pissants and beggars...
                        we need a "Like" or a "favourite" button on this forum.....Becouse I like and this is one of my favourite posts.
                        http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15659

                          Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                          we need a "Like" or a "favourite" button on this forum.....Becouse I like and this is one of my favourite posts.
                          If you hit the "REP" button, it adds to the reputation of the poster. But I do prefer the LIKE buttons on some forums.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Bill77
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 4545

                            well ill be.......
                            I would love to know how many other members knew about this "REP" feature?


                            Probably everyone except me.
                            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                            Comment

                            • Momce Makedonce
                              Member
                              • Jul 2012
                              • 562

                              The Greeks invented narcissism, and it has caught up with them

                              Narcissus was Greek. That explains a lot. The Greeks created the figure of Narcissus and thus were the first to diagnose narcissism. The consequence for Narcissus in Greek mythology was severe.



                              Narcissus was Greek. That explains a lot. The Greeks created the figure of Narcissus and thus were the first to diagnose narcissism. The consequence for Narcissus in Greek mythology was severe.
                              The great "Oxi" no vote of the Greek people on July 5 may have been a national outpouring of defiance but it turns out to have been a national act of self-delusion. After the referendum, social media around the world were full of euphoria for the glorious outcome, but the referendum was a tactical charade by the Prime Minister.
                              Greece is in default. Its banks have been shut for a more than a week. Cash machines are running dry. The country has become a cash economy. Factories are closing down. The nation is subsisting on an estimated 40 billion euros hoarded during the past year. Foreign suppliers are refusing to provide goods or credit. Greek companies with large foreign-held debt face bankruptcy. The tourism industry is facing a melt-down of forward bookings.


                              Most bizarre of all, the Communist-led Syriza government has capitulated to creditors' terms that were expressly rejected by the people in the referendum. The government itself campaigned in favour of rejection. Yet, just days after the people spoke, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras accepted the reviled terms of the creditors.
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                              It is chaotic. Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, international business editor of The Telegraph in London, wrote from Athens last week, after interviewing key ministers: "Greek premier Alexis Tsipras never expected to win the referendum He called the snap vote with the expectation and intention of losing it leaving it to others to implement the [creditors' terms] and suffer the opprobrium
                              "To their consternation, they won, igniting the great Greek revolt of 2015, the moment when the people finally issued a primal scream, daubed their war paint, and formed the hoplite phalanx ... "


                              "Syriza has been in utter disarray for 36 hours. On Tuesday, the Greek side turned up for a make-or-break summit in Brussels with no plans at all, even though Germany and its allies warned them at the outset that this is their last chance to avert ejection."
                              On Saturday, as another round of emergency negotiations took place in Brussels, the former Greek Finance Minister, Yanis Varoufakis, wrote exasperatedly in The Guardian: "Greece's financial drama has dominated the headlines for five years for one reason: the stubborn refusal of our creditors to offer essential debt relief
                              "In 2010, the Greek state became insolvent. Two options consistent with continuing membership of the eurozone presented themselves: the sensible one, that any decent banker would recommend restructuring the debt and reforming the economy; and the toxic option extending new loans to a bankrupt entity while pretending that it remains solvent.
                              "Official Europe chose the second option, putting the bailing out of French and German banks exposed to Greek public debt above Greece's socioeconomic viability It takes the mathematical expertise of a smart eight-year-old to know that this process could not end well ...
                              "Our government was elected on a mandate to end this doom loop; to demand debt restructuring and an end to crippling austerity
                              "Greeks, rightly, shiver at the thought of amputation from monetary union To exit, we would have to create a new currency from scratch. In occupied Iraq, the introduction of new paper money took almost a year, 20 or so Boeing 747s, the mobilisation of the US military's might, three printing firms and hundreds of trucks. In the absence of such support, Grexit would be the equivalent of announcing a large devaluation more than 18 months in advance: a recipe for liquidating all Greek capital stock and transferring it abroad by any means available "
                              In other words, Greece has never had a Plan B.
                              Varoufakis is half right. Greece self-evidently needs and deserves debt-restructuring to offset the austerity it has been forced to endure. It is incapable of restoring economic viability under present terms. But it is rich for Varoufakis to decry the "stubborn refusal" to accept common sense when that is exactly what Greece has done in its refusal to slash its enormous, unsustainable public sector (and political base).
                              This is narcissism writ large. The narcissist is highly critical of others, has a grandiose sense of entitlement, is incapable of accepting blame, and lashes out at criticism.
                              The Greek government cheated its way into the Euro. Successive governments wasted hundreds of billions of euros expanding public sector payrolls and obligations. Greece indulged in the multi-billion vanity of the 2004 Olympics. It wants to be treated differently to other Eurozone debtors. It wants another $80 billion in loans even as it defaults on existing debt. Yet it has refused to slash and reform its bloated public sector, even to the point of economic suicide.
                              With Greece now reduced to foreign aid by any other name to avoid economic collapse, it is the latest in a history of chronic political instability. In the past 100 years Greece has seen war, coups, republic, monarchy, occupation, civil war, military rule, socialism and now de facto bankruptcy.
                              Greece is exporting instability. The 19-member Eurozone is split over Greek Bail-out III. In Finland, the nationalist True Finns party says it will bring down the government if it agrees to another bailout for Greece.
                              The Greeks have railed against the "bullying" of its largest creditor, Germany, yet Greece itself has been a bully for decades. It worked to keep Macedonia out of the Eurozone, constantly denigrated its small neighbour, and even sought to deny Macedonia the right to name itself.
                              In Greek mythology, Narcissus was undone by Nemesis, the spirit of retribution against vanity. In the evolving modern Greek mythology, Nemesis has another name: Germany.
                              Last edited by Momce Makedonce; 07-14-2015, 02:01 AM.
                              "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task." Goce Delcev

                              Comment

                              • Phoenix
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2008
                                • 4671

                                ^^^ Great article, one of the most balanced that I've seen on the greek crisis to date...thanks Momce Makedonce.

                                I think most reports have failed to expose the role of the greeks themselves in their demise...too often we've read about the Germans, the French, the IMF or the European Central Bank as the 'villains'...I'm yet to read or to hear of a single greek owning up to this mess.

                                This pathetic level of irresponsibility and a total lack of accountability is typical across all layers of greek society.
                                Recently, in 'The Conversation', most of the greek 'academic' contributors failed to acknowledge the many ills of the greek economy, or how they got to stand on the lip of the abyss.

                                Like their fellow 'OXI-morons', many of the greek 'academics' preferred to wave the flag, they found more comfort in a fleeting moment of futile defiance than undertaking the longer and more arduous journey of retrospect.

                                The greeks are deluded idiots and deserve everything they get...and then some.
                                Sadly, we won't see them burnt at the stake or cut adrift by the Europeans or Western powers, geo-politics is their only lifeline, it's what's made them in the last 70 years and it will sustain them well into the future...

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