Financial Crisis in Greece

[vicsinad]

Well after reminding my cousins that their great grandfather used to hide from the pricks, yeah ... they opened their eyes a little.

Okay. So it may work for "x" number of people who identify as Greek but are of Macedonian ancestral origin. What about the majority of Greeks? Not just the majority of Greeks in Greece, but Greeks who came along with the population exchanges? How is telling them that they aren't Greek going to help Macedonian rights?

And how realistic is it to do that?

[vicsinad]

vicsinad, off the topic.

Is your background of Vlach ethnicity, either full or part (if applicable)

No. Both my parents are ethnic Macedonians.

[VMRO]

No. Both my parents are ethnic Macedonians.

Just asking, i've got a family friend with the same surname as yourself and he is a vlach.

[vicsinad]

Just asking, i've got a family friend with the same surname as yourself and he is a vlach.

My great-great-great grandfather was named Sinadin so that's how I got this surname. But before that time your guess is as good as mine as to any Vlachness associated with my surname! Though I've mostly heard Serbs use my surname as some sort of argument to say that I'm Serb and not Macedonian...rather an annoying and pointless argument.

[TrueMacedonian]

I guess this conversation can go many ways and for the sake of trying to say on some sort of point I won't reply to much of what you said (although I do disagree for a variety of reasons). Mainly I cannot see how telling Greeks that they are not Greeks will in any way resolve, or even help to resolve, the human rights issues that Macedonians are facing in Greece.

According to Panayote Dimitras, spokesman of the anti-racism campaign group the Greek Helsinki Monitor, racism in Greece is deep-rooted.

"Greek national culture is one that believes there is a superiority of the Greek nation which is a continuous descendent of the ancient Greeks, and when you think like this about yourself it is very easy to think that the others are inferior," he says.

I don't know maybe by not challenging todays greek we can sit there and twiddle our thumbs hoping they realize we are Macedonians while they deny us. Or we can show the rest of the world what lurks behind the columns and how sick their society really is.

Here Vic - http://eu.greekreporter.com/2012/10/...ism-in-greece/

read this article and please do read the comments below it. It's not only very typically greek but it's disgustingly inhuman. I think Macedonians should challenge these people every chance they get. Not only challenge them and their fictional claims but challenge their society with articles like the link above.

[United MKD]

Though I've mostly heard Serbs use my surname as some sort of argument to say that I'm Serb and not Macedonian...rather an annoying and pointless argument.

Serbs love that topic. Especially when they see the last name Srbinovski lol.

[EricTheRed]

A great number of responses, I wont comment on every post though.

First of all, regarding the refugees in 1922, maintaining substantial population in Smyrna and Asia Minor coast would be far more profitable for Greece than transferring them to the relatively poorer parts in Aegean Macedonia. Because, excluding Thessaloniki, Kavala and some other coastal towns, the whole region was quite underdeveloped in terms of infrastructure in comparison to Smyrna. And maintaining control of Thessaloniki and Aegean Macedonia coast was easy even without importing population, since most of the Greeks at that time lived near coastal areas. Hence, it would be far better for greece to control both aegean macedonia and asia minor coasts, instead of filling up the 1st and losing completely the 2nd. So, the population exchange was NOT in Greece's benefit-whatever was worth controlling in Aegean Macedonia was already secure. My point is that the population exchange was not originally intentioned-it was indeed forced on Greece, and Aegean Macedonia was chosen as a place of destination because of the departing Muslims(lots of space opened up in cities and villages).

Moreover, Turkey isnt a paragon of human rights herself-as I said, there still remain lots of Macedonians in Greece, while 2.000.000 Greeks who lived in Turkey less than 100 years before are now a mere 5.000. Not to mention the Kurds and Armenians. Greece is indeed a grand violator of human rights, but so is Turkey.

Also, the Ottoman Empire was never a secular country. The Christians were always second to Muslims. The original Asia Minor population were not christened Turks, but christian Eastern-Romans(most of them Greeks in the western part and the cities of Smyrna, Nicaea etc). There are no known records of Turks converting to Christianity en masse, correct? Then, how come there were millions of Christian ''Turks''?? They were Christian, but they were Greeks, Armenians, Cappadocians etc. Not to mention the millions who were forced to become Muslims in the early years after Ottoman conquest.

Wishing for Greece to deteriorate even further economically, because of the embargo(shouldnt have happened) will not help the everyday Macedonian in the Republic. Dont forget that after the embargo Greek interests created tens of thousand of jobs in Macedonia, and the trade between the 2 countries expanded greatly-Macedonia's economic prosperity is connected to Greece's, due to the nature of global economy. Do you see Macedonia better off today than in 2008?? And even if it is, it's not due to our economic crisis. The dispute between our 2 countries isnt an important issue in the lives of most Macedonians and Greeks in their respective homelands, and I dare say that this applies to the Macedonian minority in Greece as well. Are THEIR everyday lives improved with our current economic crisis? They used to have a better standard of living than the Macedonians in the republic, but they suffer now. How is Greece's economy collapsing going to improve their lives?

If someone in Florina for example is struggling to make a living and feed his/her family, seeing their standard of living fall dramatically, I dont really think that seeing the greek or the macedonian flag fly atop the town hall will matter that much-they will still have to struggle just to make things come, since neither country can provide ample relief(correct me if mistaken, I dont really know enough about the Macedonian economy today).

Sorry for the long post, again.

Regarding the Macedonians still in Greece, I stand by what I said. They should be recognized, educated about macedonia, not terrorized etc. But as viscinad said, telling us we are not Greeks isnt going to actually help. We will simply become even more ''paranoid'' than now, making a peaceful solution even more impossible. The analogy I used was in regard to mentality, as I specifically stated. Ofc Macedonia didnt do to Greeks what Greece did to Macedonias, we are on the wrong side and we should stop doing all these stuff. I repeat:Greece should recognize the macedonian minority. Regarding the issue of ancestral homeland all the changes in territory are part of history's current -greeks were once the dominant population in Asia Minor and southern Italy, yet we slowly came to accept that this is no more. In today's Aegean Macedonia, Greeks are the dominant population - a fact that should be kept in mind, while ofc catering to the remaining Macedonians' need for recognition and relevant education. However, to be realistic, and with no offensive attitude, we all know what happened to Macedonia when Albanians educated themselves about their ethnicity-they started a civil war. I personally believe that most of the Macedonian minority will react differently.

Calling our society ''sick'' is exactly the negative attitude that I believe is counterproductive. Do you really think that all we do here in Greece is saying ''omg we are so awesome, everyone else is a barbarian''. The everyday Greek has far more important issues to deal with. And btw, most of us have the same view of Golden Dawn as you do-the Great Idea no longer defines our mentality. We were content with what we had, and wish to return to prosperity. Just as every person in this world, we want to enjoy our lives. We have better things to do than hating your people and terrorizing a minority unknown to most of us(very few people outside of aegean macedonia know much or visit florina and the various northern towns and villages). I have been to Florina a couple of times, and I have to say that it didnt look like occupied territory at all, no soldiers at every corner, full cafes and tavernas(i went there before the crisis) etc... I think that the remaining Macedonians in Greece came to peacefully coexist with the Greeks, after all 50 years have passed since the civil war.

[TrueMacedonian]

Greece bailout extension 'to cost 32bn euros more'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20294369

Greece bailout extension 'to cost 32bn euros more'
12 November 2012

A draft document prepared for eurozone finance ministers suggests that Greece should be given two more years to meet budget goals, but that this will add 32.6bn euros ($41.4bn) to its bailout.

Eurozone finance ministers are meeting in Brussels to discuss new targets for Greece based on the report.

They will also discuss whether to release the latest tranche of funds but a decision is not expected on Monday.

Greece is pushing for the funds after passing a tough budget for 2013.

Greek PM Antonis Samaras has warned that without the new tranche of 31.5bn euros the country will run out of money within days.

'Smoother path'

The draft document on the pace of Greek economic reform was prepared by the so-called "troika" - the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank and the European Commission.

The troika has already pledged 240bn euros in bailout loans to Greece.

The two-year extension would give Greece time to achieve a primary budget surplus - a figure that would not include debt-financing costs.

The document says: "Our revised fiscal programme targets the 4.5% of GDP primary surplus target by 2016, two years later than foreseen.

It adds: "The smoother path will help to moderate the impact of fiscal adjustment on the economy."

The extension would cost an additional 32.6bn euros and comes with "very large" risks, the report says.

Those risks include the uncertain political support for the programme within Greece, the possible negative effect on the economy of the fiscal consolidation and possible court challenges to the measures.

The BBC's Chris Morris in Brussels says the original intention was for debt to be reduced to 120% of GDP by 2020 but that this is no longer feasible and a new target needs to be agreed by everyone.

He says this means more uncertainty, at a time when many Greek citizens believe they have taken all the austerity they can swallow.

Market fund-raising

Eurogroup chief Jean-Claude Juncker had earlier expressed optimism about the troika report.

"The basis is positive, because the Greeks have really delivered," he said.

Greek MPs approved the 2013 budget, which includes further cuts to pensions and wages, in a vote on Sunday night.

PM Antonis Samaras (centre) saw MPs pass the budget on Sunday
More than 10,000 people joined demonstrations outside Greece's parliament to protest against the cuts.

The passing of the budget was a pre-condition for Athens to be granted the next tranche of 31.5bn euros of EU/IMF loans necessary to stave off bankruptcy.

Greece faces a repayment deadline for 5bn euros of debt on Friday.

However, German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said it was unlikely the eurozone ministers would decide on the disbursement of the tranche at Monday's meeting.

The funding will have to be approved first by some parliaments, including Germany's.

"We all... want to help Greece, but we won't be put under pressure," Mr Schaeuble told the weekly newspaper Welt am Sonntag.

On Tuesday, Greece will make an urgent bid to raise funds from the financial markets in case it does not get the tranche of bailout money.

The national economy is expected to shrink next year by 4.5% and public debt is likely to rise to 189% of GDP, almost double Greece's national output.

This year, public debt stood at 175%.

The head of Syriza, a left-wing opposition party, said the budget cuts would leave Greeks unable to afford essential goods this winter.

[lavce pelagonski]

Greek Companies in Macedonia take loans to fund companies in Greece
Tuesday, 13 November 2012

A report by Dnevnik published last night resulted in an official reaction by the Macedonian Government. The report stated that Greek owned companies in Macedonia (Vero, Okta, Skopje Brewery) have transferred 70 million euros of their capital and credit to their subsidiaries in Greece.



In lamest terms, the Greek companies in Macedonia are using Macedonian capital to invest in and keep afloat their struggling companies in Greece, since Greek banks no longer issue credits and the ones they do are with astronomical interest rates.



This news prompted reaction from Government officials.

- We are going to be very careful and ensure Macedonian capital is not transferred to any country, this includes Greece as well. We are certainly not going to allow Macedonian Banking capital in the forms of loans to be used by foreign companies or subsidiaries - stated Macedonian Finance Minister, Zoran Stavrevski.



Stavrevski added NBRM is taking steps to ensure this does not happen in the future. "If necessary we will follow the work and review the financial history of these companies to ensure they are in step with Macedonian Banking laws," added Stavrevski.

[EricTheRed]

Let me get this straight: the Macedonian government wants to block the free transfer of capital between countries. Dont they realize this is how our whole economic system works? A bank in X country gives loans to a company based there in order to invest in another country. Thats how Greek companies came to exist in Macedonia. Thats how international investments happen. Does Macedonia want to defy capitalism??? Be our guests and join the same club with Cuba and N.Korea.

Moreover, this overly populist article does not mention that almost 95% of major banks and companies in Macedonia are FOREIGN! Keeping that in mind, check this phrase: ''We are certainly not going to allow Macedonian Banking capital in the forms of loans to be used by foreign companies or subsidiaries''. It will be disastrous for Macedonia, since all major private financial organizations will lose the ability to fund themselves. Moreover, the banks themselves wont be able to operate, since they too are ''foreign subsidiaries''(e.g Stoppanska bank=subsidiary of NBG).

Remember: the greek owned companies in Macedonia are mostly subsidiaries, meaning that they are dependent of the main companies, based in Greece. The main companies can liquify their assets in Macedonia to keep themselves afloat, if no other option remains. Meaning that tens of thousands of Macedonians would suddenly become unemployed, sparking an economic crisis in Macedonia herself.

I told you before, dont get too happy with our economic collapse, for it may backfire on Macedonia.

[Bill77]

Let me get this straight: the Macedonian government wants to block the free transfer of capital between countries. Dont they realize this is how our whole economic system works?

They realise how Greeks work and they are not alone in getting nervous dealing with Greece.

Moreover, this overly populist article does not mention that almost 95% of major banks and companies in Macedonia are FOREIGN!

Yeh....and many innocent hard working Macedonians have money in these foreign owned banks. You know what may happen to banks and these investments, once the loans fail to return (and its not like Greeks are good in economics).

I told you before, dont get too happy with our economic collapse, for it may backfire on Macedonia.

Certainly dealing with Greece (financially) has a greater risk of backfiring. Which is why the Macedonian government is and should be alarmed. With all the criticism the Macedonian government get (and justifiably so), I give them this, It looks like they are wiser than the EU and IMF who carelessly and irresponsibly throw money away.

[Risto the Great]

- We are going to be very careful and ensure Macedonian capital is not transferred to any country, this includes Greece as well. We are certainly not going to allow Macedonian Banking capital in the forms of loans to be used by foreign companies or subsidiaries - stated Macedonian Finance Minister, Zoran Stavrevski.

I wonder if they will be as quick to want to disallow loan funds coming into Macedonia.

[Bill77]

A report by Dnevnik published last night resulted in an official reaction by the Macedonian Government. The report stated that Greek owned companies in Macedonia (Vero, Okta, Skopje Brewery) have transferred 70 million euros of their capital and credit to their subsidiaries in Greece.

Remember: the greek owned companies in Macedonia are mostly subsidiaries, meaning that they are dependent of the main companies, based in Greece. The main companies can liquify their assets in Macedonia to keep themselves afloat, if no other option remains. Meaning that tens of thousands of Macedonians would suddenly become unemployed, sparking an economic crisis in Macedonia herself.

"VERO" (in Bitola) is a couple of hundred meters away from its competitors which are in the main markert "PAZAR". There are about 5 staff members working in VERO which is outnumbered by the stalls and staff at the Pazar by about 20 to 1. Do your Math, and tell me does it benefit Macedonians if places like "VERO" was to close down and people start buying locally owned locally produced goods?

[EricTheRed]

They realise how Greeks work and they are not alone in getting nervous dealing with Greece.

First of all, this is how every country with a capitalist economy works, so they may as well get nervous with almost every country in the planet. Secondly, while Greece itself may indeed be in a bad shape, a great number of Greeks were and are renowned in the field of business and trade. You should realize that the way a government works does not define its people (else you could call all Macedonians traitors, since their government is treacherous).

Yeh....and many innocent hard working Macedonians have money in these foreign owned banks. You know what may happen to banks and these investments, once the loans fail to return (and its not like Greeks are good in economics).

Yet again, dont confuse a state and its people. Throughout the ages the Greek individual has been VERY successful in economics. The Greek businessmen operating in Macedonia(among other countries) are good in economics, so no fears for the peoples' saving. Or do you imply that Greeks are genetically unable to perform well in economics??? Stop falling victim to 3rd grade racial stereotypes( not all Greeks are bad in economics, not all Americans are retarded etc etc... ).

Regarding the small VERO store in Monastiri you might want to rethink the situation. If a small store closes, no harm done, because there's a bigger one next to it? Would you say the same thing without knowing who owns the store? What about the small store's employees? There is no guarantee that the bigger store will hire them. Moreover, are you sure that the goods sold at ''PAZAR'' are locally owned and produced? What if they sold foreign owned (and maybe produced) goods as well? What if the small VERO store sold locally owned and produced goods? A supermarket neither owns nor produces the goods on its shelves, its common sense. The same applies to a market: Macedonians may be behind the stalls(just as in Vero, mind you) but they dont necessarily sell Macedonian owned and produced stuff( clothes for example could be produced in China).

Following this way of thought, it would be in the interest of Macedonians for everything foreign to be thrown out of the country(be it investments, companies, banks, goods etc). Then Macedonia can be renamed to Socialist Republic of Macedonia and join N.Korea and Cuba in a quest to revive communism and economic isolation, since these systems brought so much happiness and prosperity to places like Eastern Europe....

[Tomche Makedonche]

Bitola. Thanks