Financial Crisis in Greece

[Risto the Great]

Voltron, the situation in Greece is dire.

You can't polish a turd.

[Brian]

Strange how I dont see it that bad and I live here.

We always had homeless even in the days of the Drachma and Omonia square well surprise surprise...

Most Greeks have a place to go, that is why in August Athens is empty. In the rural areas the people I know that raise their own livestock, grow their own vegetables, have their olive oil, and even ferment their own wine. Neighbors trade goods, Il give you a goose for your chicken etc. You can survive, nobody can take the land from you. We are blessed with a good climate, the IMF cant take that away either. Most of those homes are already payed off for many years so their is no title lean against them. So is the land, usually its been inheritied for a long time now. What are they going to do to these people ? They cant do anything.

Sounds like you think all the people can go 'off-line' and survive without money - with no debts on their country property, growing their own food, using firewood for heating and cooking, maybe portable solar panels for electricity and wells for water. It's the survivalist mentality and I've see it all the time in the alternate media, albeit about economic/war/doomsday scenarios. But, consider that it depends on what and how much the Euro banker come politicians want to do to you and the above argument starts weakening -
1. Property taxes can be levied (city and country) and if you have no money you can be sold up even if the property has been in your family for generations.

2. Not all land is suited to all types of farming ie rice grows better in these parts and potatoes in those parts ect. It may not be sustainable for one's plot to sustain you fully without trading what you produce in abundance. You might get away with a lot of "goose for a chicken" trades but anything bigger (and if the government/EU wants to) they can slap on a produce tax to stamp out an underground market.

3. Not everyone has big parcels of farming land. I would think, like in a lot of places, city people would have a smaller plot they tend to in summer to supplement their income by eating fresh, free vegetables, making their own wine and preserves for winter. Where do you get flour from for bread? True farmers have enough land to feed themselves, but if they have a bunch of relatives (from both sides of the family) descend on them it can really start stretching things.

4. Unless you have your own trees, plantations for firewood are off limits and you can get arrested and fined (and you'll pay the fine with?). It's easy to run out of firewood (it depends on how long things go for) and then where do you get more firewood from - steal it or burn the furniture?

At least most of the stuff I have come across, the 'nut cases' pre-stocked canned and dry goods to help see them through. How well set-up is the average Greek, and how well set up are you?

[Brian]

Makedonche, do you remember our discussion with Cultea in August, September???





Now where is Cultea when we need him

Papandreu resigned already. Greek default, returning to drachma and Samaras being new PM will follow soon.

Cultea, i know you are reading this cuz you came back to the forum after being banned at least 10 times b4


P.S: Anyone knows when is the next German parliamentary elections? I am asking because thats the deadline when Greece will be defaulted and return to drachma. Just roll back 6 months b4 the election date, thats the end of the Greece`s euro journey, just b4 election propaganda of Merkel`s party begins.

Ofc the Greek deadline might be the French elections in 2012, we will see.

Like i said, Greek default and return to drachma totally depends on French and German politics. They have to prepare their own banks/economy to the announcement of Greek default and and then they can manage to let Greeks go away and suffer all by themselves. They have to clear the mess after the Greek default and only then they can start propaganda era of their local elections otherwise they will definitely loose their seats, German and French people selects new leaders.

Lets say; Greece will default and return to drachma b4 this page reaches to 120th page but i hope Cultea wont return to the forum to spam this thread to make it reach 150th page in few days

Hey, Onur, maybe we can get everyone call dibs on different dates and we can see who gets closest in guessing the date Greece actually declares bankrupt (we know they already) officially. Cultia says 10 years, but dates would be better, like eg Jan 2012. If people pick the same month then they need to refine their pic with a day. If anybody wants to play, just for the fun of it, they can state their selected dates - remember it is the official date Greece declares bankrupt.

[Voltron]

Sounds like you think all the people can go 'off-line' and survive without money - with no debts on their country property, growing their own food, using firewood for heating and cooking, maybe portable solar panels for electricity and wells for water. It's the survivalist mentality and I've see it all the time in the alternate media, albeit about economic/war/doomsday scenarios. But, consider that it depends on what and how much the Euro banker come politicians want to do to you and the above argument starts weakening -
1. Property taxes can be levied (city and country) and if you have no money you can be sold up even if the property has been in your family for generations.

2. Not all land is suited to all types of farming ie rice grows better in these parts and potatoes in those parts ect. It may not be sustainable for one's plot to sustain you fully without trading what you produce in abundance. You might get away with a lot of "goose for a chicken" trades but anything bigger (and if the government/EU wants to) they can slap on a produce tax to stamp out an underground market.

3. Not everyone has big parcels of farming land. I would think, like in a lot of places, city people would have a smaller plot they tend to in summer to supplement their income by eating fresh, free vegetables, making their own wine and preserves for winter. Where do you get flour from for bread? True farmers have enough land to feed themselves, but if they have a bunch of relatives (from both sides of the family) descend on them it can really start stretching things.

4. Unless you have your own trees, plantations for firewood are off limits and you can get arrested and fined (and you'll pay the fine with?). It's easy to run out of firewood (it depends on how long things go for) and then where do you get more firewood from - steal it or burn the furniture?

At least most of the stuff I have come across, the 'nut cases' pre-stocked canned and dry goods to help see them through. How well set-up is the average Greek, and how well set up are you?

Brian, youd be surprised on what people can survive on. Just google earth some of the rural regions in Greece and see for yourself. Any family that has around an acre or even less has enough space to grow vegetables, have a chicken coup, grape vines and if your by the sea even fish. I saw a guy one time put on his snorkel gear with a spear gun and he just went to town. An hour later in his "wet suit satchel" he had managed to spear a small octopus some sea bass and other small fishes. I shit you not that day he had his dinner done. I see how others live and most families live in the same neighborhood literlly next door in different plots of land (hence the typical balkan fighting sometimes). People that are not used to living like that think its impossible, but it really isnt. As far as the taxman coming... lol,Instead of collecting taxes or property he would be collecting buckshots from his ass.

[Voltron]

Now im not saying everything is rosy, im just saying when people's backs are at the wall and have nothing left there are resources that they can turn to. Maybe not all of them, but surely most of them.

[Brian]

Voltron, the situation in Greece is dire.

You can't polish a turd.

As a country they're F'ed.

As a people, maybe for some, RtG, but I can't help thinking Greeks (known lyers) are no better than the Macedonians in RoM in telling the truth about 'how bad things are'. I can't imagine the Egej Macedonians being any more honest then the ones in RoM. I think, if you look in a few mattresses you will find lots of Euros hiding there, and if you dig hard enough, you'll even find the drachmas someone's grand-dad put there. It's 'soooo bad', that's why we sit at the cafes all day, every day - heard it all before. After seeing for myself in RoM, I don't believe a word they say.

Citing an example or two of someone doing it tough means little in how the population as a whole are doing - even in Western countries you can find examples of people doing it tough but you would hardly say we in x are doing it tough.

[makedonche]

Makedonche, the whole mess regarding Greece is when Papamalakas decided to hang out the dirty laundry for the whole world to see. In his short sighted attempt to discredit the then ruling party New Democracy he basically told the whole world how the statistics were false. He had no idea how it would of backfired in his face and subsequently start a Eurozone attack from speculators. Then, we find out that he even exageratted on how false the statistics were back then. It wasnt as bad as he said but by then the gates of hell had been unleashed. Im just saying that for some that are harping on how much pain we will feel and blah blah. Its not going to happen, most Greeks have homes in rural areas or family to stay with. They will get by, while the other people commit mass suicide as they did in America when the credit market went through the crapper a few years back. Thats just reality.

Voltron
Didn't the mess start with cooking the books for EU entry? If so, who cooked the books? If it is who I think it is then your country and it's people are being taken for a further ride!
Papamalakas didn't cause the crisis, the crisis is caused by spending more than you earn and then borrowing more to feed the lifestlye you have become accustomed to - this is the denial part that most Greeks don't seem to want to confess to or take responsibility for. As for telling the whole world the statistics were false - how do you perceive this as "short sighted", surely the truth should be told to the people or to the lenders or for that matter the whole world, the truth is the truth and the sooner it is told and faced up to, the sooner your country will begin to move forward, the longer it stays in denial the longer the problems will stay around and get worse!
Is there enough land for everyone in Greece to have an arable acre to live off? I think not, that is so naieve of you I can't believe you think it has any credibility! And mass suicide for the rest hey! Now your'e starting to show your true colours, a country's integrity can be measured by the way it treats it's disadvantaged, by it's level of humanity and humane actions to all within it's borders - I don't think mass suicide is one of those enviable traits that any country would want to shoulder the blame for. Furthermore you appear to be displaying this "I'm allright Jack" attitude which basically means as long as your'e ok f%&*k everyone else! A dangerous mindset because one day when you find yourself in need I bet you won't be too impressed with other people who are "allright" and you don't have enough to survive! Very poor showing Voltron - still - I suppose your'e a product of your enviroment in the "Southern State of Denial" - home of the Hellassians.

[Voltron]

Voltron
Didn't the mess start with cooking the books for EU entry? If so, who cooked the books? If it is who I think it is then your country and it's people are being taken for a further ride!
Papamalakas didn't cause the crisis, the crisis is caused by spending more than you earn and then borrowing more to feed the lifestlye you have become accustomed to - this is the denial part that most Greeks don't seem to want to confess to or take responsibility for. As for telling the whole world the statistics were false - how do you perceive this as "short sighted", surely the truth should be told to the people or to the lenders or for that matter the whole world, the truth is the truth and the sooner it is told and faced up to, the sooner your country will begin to move forward, the longer it stays in denial the longer the problems will stay around and get worse!
Is there enough land for everyone in Greece to have an arable acre to live off? I think not, that is so naieve of you I can't believe you think it has any credibility! And mass suicide for the rest hey! Now your'e starting to show your true colours, a country's integrity can be measured by the way it treats it's disadvantaged, by it's level of humanity and humane actions to all within it's borders - I don't think mass suicide is one of those enviable traits that any country would want to shoulder the blame for. Furthermore you appear to be displaying this "I'm allright Jack" attitude which basically means as long as your'e ok f%&*k everyone else! A dangerous mindset because one day when you find yourself in need I bet you won't be too impressed with other people who are "allright" and you don't have enough to survive! Very poor showing Voltron - still - I suppose your'e a product of your enviroment in the "Southern State of Denial" - home of the Hellassians.

And do you think we are the only one that has cooked our books ? Didnt the Hungarian PM a couple years back admit that they did the same exact thing ? How many banks have also cooked their books ? Yet they get bailed out without any notice. Ever here about Dexia bank ?

Here...

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/business/2011-10/10/c_131183487.htm

"The first bank to fall in Europe's debt crisis, Dexia has been challenged with huge risk exposure, as its global credit risk exposure was believed to stand at 700 billion dollars, more than twice Greece's GDP.

With an asset that is estimated about 150 percent of Belgium's GDP, Dexia's bankruptcy would deal huge blow to financial sectors in both France and Belgium."

As far as stashing money in the matress, its not evil guys. It comes in handy in situations like now when you know you have a government that is just as crooked as the thief that comes in the night. Stand up citizens get screwed over because they do everything right, but lose their homes when Banks act irresponsibly with greed. See US of A.

If the Euro goes down, it wont be the Greek people that will suffer the most. Odds are an American across the Atlantic will feel the impact more than the people that live here. And again, im not saying everything is great and that we will make out like bandits. All im saying is that the society here is structured differently. Most people arent from Athens and is the reason why today more and more people are moving back to their ancestral homes in the country.

[makedonche]

And do you think we are the only one that has cooked our books ? Didnt the Hungarian PM a couple years back admit that they did the same exact thing ? How many banks have also cooked their books ? Yet they get bailed out without any notice. Ever here about Dexia bank ?

Here...

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/business/2011-10/10/c_131183487.htm

"The first bank to fall in Europe's debt crisis, Dexia has been challenged with huge risk exposure, as its global credit risk exposure was believed to stand at 700 billion dollars, more than twice Greece's GDP.

With an asset that is estimated about 150 percent of Belgium's GDP, Dexia's bankruptcy would deal huge blow to financial sectors in both France and Belgium."

As far as stashing money in the matress, its not evil guys. It comes in handy in situations like now when you know you have a government that is just as crooked as the thief that comes in the night. Stand up citizens get screwed over because they do everything right, but lose their homes when Banks act irresponsibly with greed. See US of A.

If the Euro goes down, it wont be the Greek people that will suffer the most. Odds are an American across the Atlantic will feel the impact more than the people that live here. And again, im not saying everything is great and that we will make out like bandits. All im saying is that the society here is structured differently. Most people arent from Athens and is the reason why today more and more people are moving back to their ancestral homes in the country.

Voltron
No matter how much I portray the truth to you, you always mange to deflect/deny/lay blame elsewhere. When are you going to stand up and put your hand in the air and say yes I contributed to this disaster, I acknowledge my role in this crisis, I am responsible both directly and indirectly for the current situation in Greece? It is no an acceptable excuse to say Hungarians cooked their books or Dexia Bank cooked it's books more than Greece did - so therefore we aren't to blame, they started it - you must learn to look within your country and yourself for your shortcomings and acknowledge and accept them, then come up with a plan to deal with them - don't wait for the EU of IMF to do it for you otherwise it comes at a cost, the cost is freedom.
As for the US - learn from their mistakes, don't replicate them! By the way the US isn't on life support from EU & IMF and I doubt very much they will suffer half as much as the ordinary Greek people. Moving back to ancestral homes? - I thought the opposite was happening where Greeks are leaving the country in droves - so the Macedonians ae witnessing at the border1

[Brian]

Brian, youd be surprised on what people can survive on. Just google earth some of the rural regions in Greece and see for yourself. Any family that has around an acre or even less has enough space to grow vegetables, have a chicken coup, grape vines and if your by the sea even fish. I saw a guy one time put on his snorkel gear with a spear gun and he just went to town. An hour later in his "wet suit satchel" he had managed to spear a small octopus some sea bass and other small fishes. I shit you not that day he had his dinner done. I see how others live and most families live in the same neighborhood literlly next door in different plots of land (hence the typical balkan fighting sometimes). People that are not used to living like that think its impossible, but it really isnt. As far as the taxman coming... lol,Instead of collecting taxes or property he would be collecting buckshots from his ass.

That's the sad part Voltron, it's like poking a dog with a small stick until he jumps, then smack him with a big stick in your other hand. They whacked the tax on your electricity bills so people would pay them or get their power cut off. Then how do you live with no power.

Vegetable patches are great, but what about bread/flour - you need a big patch just for that. It depends how long it goes for vs how long your money will last, even just buying basics like bread/flour,salt,oil,firewood. I'm not saying you can't do it at all, but true self sufficiency is not that easy.

What about you house/condo in the city? If the government puts a property tax on it, do you think they wont/can't sell you up. The tax man wont come in his pin striped suit for you to shoot buckshot into him - it will be the police in force with guns, and according to some circles, it could be EU cops in the not too distant future. You are not like Argentina where even the President/Prime Minister wants to help you. Your 'Prime Minister' is Goldman Sachs who wants to own everything and sell it to anyone who will give them money for it.

The Greek people are to blame, but not 100% - just 99.99%. It's like giving a kid free poisoned lollies from a stranger. The kid thinks it's fantastic up until the moment he dies. Did the Greeks not once think all this free money can't be good - but that thinking requires a collective 'No'. Instead one person takes it and shows off his wealth, and then another man takes it, and the third guy is wondering why he is not taking it, then it's on for everybody - that's how the bank screwed the people out of their properties/sovereignty.

When you see everything going to the shit hole, the smart guy says grab as much as you can (and invest it in the 20 years and) then hide it. The poor suckers are the ones who thought it would never end, spent up big (and or have big debts) and had a wonderfully 20 years.

The Honk kong Chinese got citizenship in Australia/Canada/USA/ect and bought up properties and moved their families there before the hand over to China, just in case. It turned out they didn't need to, but you never can know.

[Bill77]

The problem with voltron's land and vegetables theories is, you need to work the fields.

How do you say "work" in Greek voltron? Something wrong with google translate. I Type in "Work"..i get in Greek "χοίρους κώλο".

[makedonche]

The problem with voltron's land and vegetables theories is, you need to work the fields.

How do you say "work" in Greek voltron? Something wrong with google translate. I Type in "Work"..i get in Greek "χοίρους κώλο".

Bill77
hahahahaha.......

[Voltron]

That's the sad part Voltron, it's like poking a dog with a small stick until he jumps, then smack him with a big stick in your other hand. They whacked the tax on your electricity bills so people would pay them or get their power cut off. Then how do you live with no power.

Vegetable patches are great, but what about bread/flour - you need a big patch just for that. It depends how long it goes for vs how long your money will last, even just buying basics like bread/flour,salt,oil,firewood. I'm not saying you can't do it at all, but true self sufficiency is not that easy.

What about you house/condo in the city? If the government puts a property tax on it, do you think they wont/can't sell you up. The tax man wont come in his pin striped suit for you to shoot buckshot into him - it will be the police in force with guns, and according to some circles, it could be EU cops in the not too distant future. You are not like Argentina where even the President/Prime Minister wants to help you. Your 'Prime Minister' is Goldman Sachs who wants to own everything and sell it to anyone who will give them money for it.

The Greek people are to blame, but not 100% - just 99.99%. It's like giving a kid free poisoned lollies from a stranger. The kid thinks it's fantastic up until the moment he dies. Did the Greeks not once think all this free money can't be good - but that thinking requires a collective 'No'. Instead one person takes it and shows off his wealth, and then another man takes it, and the third guy is wondering why he is not taking it, then it's on for everybody - that's how the bank screwed the people out of their properties/sovereignty.

When you see everything going to the shit hole, the smart guy says grab as much as you can (and invest it in the 20 years and) then hide it. The poor suckers are the ones who thought it would never end, spent up big (and or have big debts) and had a wonderfully 20 years.

The Honk kong Chinese got citizenship in Australia/Canada/USA/ect and bought up properties and moved their families there before the hand over to China, just in case. It turned out they didn't need to, but you never can know.

Brian, what i am telling you is worst case scenario. Losing your home in Athens, and having to move back to the village. So forget the property tax on something you dont have in your possession anymore. The cutting off of the power is a threat and will not be likely enforced. Just like anything else here, its one thing to announce measures and a completely different story to actually implement them. About the how much you can survive off the land, well thats another topic on its own. Im not saying tilling the lands to make money off of it where you would need workers. Anyway, its starting to take off in a different direction. The point of what I am saying is that it will not be the Greeks that will suffer the most out of this. It will have global consenquences with everyone picking up the pieces when "Greece Explodes".

[Bill77]

Its Andreas Georgiou that is a turd for speaking the truth http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...&postcount=805

Now its also Papandreou. I wander why its hard not being a bullshit artist in Greece, who would want to be labled a malaka or worse, get a life sentence.

Even worse than above, Get Shot.

(This is an old article i just stumbled across)

Sokratis Giolias, 37, was shot more than 15 times in the Athens neighbourhood of Ilioupoli.

According to colleagues, he had been about to publish the results of an investigation into corruption.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...75&postcount=3

Its just doesn't pay to be a honest Greek.

[La Bira]

Socrates Golias was assassinated by the Sect of Revolutionaries, so he wasn’t exactly picked for his… anti-corruption efforts. Golias was embodying many of the lowest and most disgusting sides of modern journalism (including power games, blackmails, inside hits, populism and cheap nationalism).
That doesn’t mean he deserved to die, but when I want to kill someone myself I usually don’t mourn for his execution. What a scum he was. I even lose my temper by simply recalling him.