Financial Crisis in Greece

[Brian]

Stojacanec,

Do you not understand that Macedonia had been used against Greece in the recent past by the likes of Bulgaria for example ? Do you feel that using a symbol that Ancient Hellenes used collectively as well is appropriate while at the same time laying claim to a minority living within Greece's borders that just so happens to have the same name that we identify as Hellenes themselves ? Its like asking me to amputate my arm for the sake of individuality. And before someone harps on me for this, im just flustered at some of the questions here posed as if nobody knows the underlying reasons for these things.
Does that mean that Macedonians within your context of definition dont exist ? No, absolutly not, but lets not act as if we are completely oblvious to historical events and realities.

The historical reality is that, according to Ottoman archives (at least in this video I found)

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6094&page=2

there were people from towns/villages in RoM, and in Northern Greece, who were paid soldiers in the Ottoman army with Slavic sounding names and who self identified as Macedonians. The records the video relates to is for 1431 -1432. The video also makes mention of the Macedonian Orthodox church in Ohrid. For there to be an established church means we can safely say Macedonians were in these parts (RoM and Norther Greece) well before 1431. That means all the BS, from all our neighbours, regarding when Macedonia came into existence (eg 1944 and Tito or any date after 1400) is just that, total BS.

If Macedonia's detractors were wrong (which they were) about all the different 'start' dates after 1400 of when the Macedonians arrived in Macedonia, then does it not suggest their other claims could also be wrong? Hopefully more and more evidence will continue to surface and prove what we Macedonians have known all along. I am not saying absolute racial purity, but a continuation of people self identifying as Macedonians and speaking the tongue I speak.

[The LION will ROAR]

Less healthcare, but Greece is still buying guns
Greeks furious at 'intact' arms spending as eurozone leaders insist on cuts to their public services

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/less-healthcare-but-greece-is-still-buying-guns-6257753.html?origin=internalSearch

http://www.happensingreece.com/?p=888#more-888

As Greece is forced by European leaders to abandon a referendum to allow the people the chance to vote on its latest bailout conditions, the country is preparing for yet another dose of austerity.

The conditions of the next €130bn rescue package will be severe, yet there is an elephant in the room: the extent to which the German but also the French military industries rely on Greece.

The small, crisis-hit nation, whose prime minister, George Papandreou, narrowly survived a vote of confidence on Friday, buys more German weapons than any other country. Some Greeks want to know why it is that France and Germany are demanding cuts in pensions, salaries and public services, but the buying of arms is allowed to continue unabated.

Yanis Varoufakis, professor of economics at Athens University, says: "When Greek hospitals are running out of bandages, the only bit of the budget not being attacked by the EU and IMF is military expenditure."

Greece is the highest military spender, in terms of percentage of GDP, in the EU. Professor Varoufakis adds: "Greece is a disproportionately crucial customer for the arma-ments industry. In comparison to Greece's size, it's preposterous."

Despite its dire financial straits, the country's military expenditure has risen during the global financial crisis. It spent €7.1bn in 2010, compared with €6.24bn in 2007.

Some 58 per cent of Greece's military expenditure in 2010 went to Germany, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (Sipri).

The US is the major beneficiary of Greek military expenditure, with the Americans supplying 42 per cent of its arms. In second and third place are Germany, with 22.7 per cent, and then France, with 12.5 per cent.

Professor Varoufakis believes: "The EU and IMF keep giving loans to Greece to stop it going bankrupt, but countries such as Germany need to justify this to voters, hence the demand for spending cuts. But with Greece being such a crucial arms customer, it only takes a phone call to the German government from an armaments manufacturer to ensure that Greece's military budget stays intact."

Greece's defence budget is historically high due to the perceived threat from neighbouring Turkey. Arms companies have benefited by playing the two sides off against each other. Professor Varoufakis says: "Typically, one side buys, say, a frigate, and then the other buys the same frigate – with the only difference being the colour of the paint."

However, critics in Greece argue that, as an EU member, Greece should be guaranteed protection from Turkey by its more powerful allies. Although the EU is not a military alliance, common sense suggests that Greece could reasonably expect support if it was attacked by Turkey.

Kostas Panagopoulos, co-head of the Greek polling agency Alco, says: "We have had a huge military spend for the 40 years since the junta, due to our issues with Turkey. But people are saying we must change our priorities. I believe Germany and France are pressuring Greece to keep spending. It is not clear if it is part of the bailout deal – it is a hidden issue."

Greece's importance for the military exports of both countries is clear from a closer look at data from Sipri. During the five years up to the end of 2010, Greece purchased more of Germany's arms exports than any other country, buying 15 per cent of its weapons. Over the same period, Greece was the third-largest customer for France's military exports, and its top buyer in Europe, with 12 per cent. In that time, only 1 per cent of UK arms sales went to Greece, all of which were in 2010.

As their government kept snapping up guns and ammo, ordinary Greeks suffered through the cuts. Yiorgos Droggitis, 30, has not been paid for almost two months. An administrator for one of Greece's debt-laden local authorities, Haidari, in north-east Athens, Droggitis says his finances are increasingly stretched: "One day, over the summer, I did not even have 80 cents to buy bread."

To top it all, Droggitis is only now able to open the windows of his apartment after several weeks during which the street where he lives was strewn with stinking rubbish due to refuse collectors being on strike.

He is among those angry that the EU is demanding cuts in Greece at that same time as selling the country billions of euros-worth of weapons. He says: "Germany and France are telling us to take these cuts to our health and education systems, but we keep buying their weapons."

Pavlos Spanakis, 67, a retired civil engineer in Athens, has seen his state pension cut a second time, bringing it to 80 per cent of what it was two years ago. He sighs: "The austerity measures have gone too far and we cannot afford more cuts. We must improve in other ways – and one would be for the EU to protect us from Turkey so our defence budget can be smaller."

[Sputnik]

I'm not trying to divert from the seriousness of this issue, but i have to know,

Varoufakis and Spanakis, are these names for real? jk

[Risto the Great]

Pavlos Spanakis, 67, a retired civil engineer in Athens, has seen his state pension cut a second time, bringing it to 80 per cent of what it was two years ago. He sighs: "The austerity measures have gone too far and we cannot afford more cuts. We must improve in other ways – and one would be for the EU to protect us from Turkey so our defence budget can be smaller."

I wonder what Turkey has done lately to make this person feel so scared.

[DirtyCodingHabitz]

Looks like we'll be flooded by greeks in Victoria.
SBS News - Greeks seek Aussie happiness - YouTube

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Looks like we'll be flooded by greeks in Victoria.
SBS News - Greeks seek Aussie happiness - YouTube

Great...it's not like we don't have enough of them here as it is.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do you feel that using a symbol that Ancient Hellenes used collectively as well is appropriate.......

Many symbols were used by various ancient peoples. If Greeks like the symbol so much, why don't they change their current Bavaro-Russian flag? Macedonia shouldn't be prevented from using a national symbol that was also used by the Macedonian nation in antiquity. That is why we lay claim on it, because it was once used by a Macedonian state, and today again there is only one Macedonian state. The situation should actually be in reverse, and we should be preventing you people from usurping our national symbol. But, even if we didn't wish to do so, look at the Slovaks and Hungarians, do you see them fighting over the same cross depicted on both of their flags?

..........while at the same time laying claim to a minority living within Greece's borders that just so happens to have the same name that we identify as Hellenes themselves ?

That minority is our kin, they are our people and their ancestry and language is Macedonian. Again, if the Macedonian name means so much to you morons then change the name of your country, but don't ask us to change ours. No matter what happens the situation will always remain as this; our language, culture and people will always be known as Macedonian by all Macedonians and by others. Yours will be Greek. No matter what.

Its like asking me to amputate my arm for the sake of individuality.

Boring analogy. Macedonia is Macedonia, Macedonians are Macedonians. You still have two arms. Get over it.

........lets not act as if we are completely oblvious to historical events and realities.

Take your own advice, or better yet, give it to someone who is ignorant yet happy to buy into that garbage, because we aren't. You're talking about the sole identity of our ethnicity, nationality and culture. That is the whole body, not just an arm.

[Voltron]

Many symbols were used by various ancient peoples. If Greeks like the symbol so much, why don't they change their current Bavaro-Russian flag? Macedonia shouldn't be prevented from using a national symbol that was also used by the Macedonian nation in antiquity. That is why we lay claim on it, because it was once used by a Macedonian state, and today again there is only one Macedonian state. The situation should actually be in reverse, and we should be preventing you people from usurping our national symbol. But, even if we didn't wish to do so, look at the Slovaks and Hungarians, do you see them fighting over the same cross depicted on both of their flags?

That minority is our kin, they are our people and their ancestry and language is Macedonian. Again, if the Macedonian name means so much to you morons then change the name of your country, but don't ask us to change ours. No matter what happens the situation will always remain as this; our language, culture and people will always be known as Macedonian by all Macedonians and by others. Yours will be Greek. No matter what.

Boring analogy. Macedonia is Macedonia, Macedonians are Macedonians. You still have two arms. Get over it.

Take your own advice, or better yet, give it to someone who is ignorant yet happy to buy into that garbage, because we aren't. You're talking about the sole identity of our ethnicity, nationality and culture. That is the whole body, not just an arm.

SOM, with all due respect , there isnt any evidence to support the idea that the sunburst was a national symbol for the Ancient Macedonians. It was most likely a decorative symbol just like the many found on vases and what not. Anyway, the only issue I raised was asking "why". Some people still are asking "why" as if they dont know the Greek position on it. Thats all I said. Right or Wrong is a different story altogether.

[Soldier of Macedon]

SOM, with all due respect , there isnt any evidence to support the idea that the sunburst was a national symbol for the Ancient Macedonians. It was most likely a decorative symbol just like the many found on vases and what not.

There may not be any direct citation, but given that it was the main feature on the golden larnax of an unearthed Macedonian grave, it would appear to be a symbol of some significance and not just a decoration. Do you know of another larnax presented in the same manner?

Right or Wrong is a different story altogether.

You are wrong. Because you are trying to dictate what we should do, when we really couldn't care less what you do. Like I said, change the name and flag of your country if it means that much to you, otherwise live your life and don't concern yourself with what we're doing, because Macedonians will always remain Macedonians, with both arms in tact.

[Voltron]

There may not be any direct citation, but given that it was the main feature on the golden larnax of an unearthed Macedonian grave, it would appear to be a symbol of some significance and not just a decoration. Do you know of another larnax presented in the same manner?

Andronikos made it out to be much more than it really was. The hype surrounding that finding and symbol still can still be felt today.

You are wrong. Because you are trying to dictate what we should do, when we really couldn't care less what you do. Like I said, change the name and flag of your country if it means that much to you, otherwise live your life and don't concern yourself with what we're doing, because Macedonians will always remain Macedonians, with both arms in tact

No, im not trying to dictate anything. Flags come and go. It just symoblises their modern state that they are living in throughout the times. It wasnt so long ago we had a Byzantine Flag. Before that it was probably something else. That doesnt mean we as a people change each time as well. So for me its not so much an issue. I like the Greek flag and I couldnt care less if it was German influenced or from an English shipping company. Its got the Cross that symbolises our faith as Byzantine inheritors. Blue and White my favorite colors and thats pretty much enough for me. We did not put any ancient symbols on it. So as you can see we first and formost acknowledge our Christian faith as Byzantines first rather than Antiquity which makes sense since its the most recent transition. Ottomans of course dont count since we are not an Islamic people.

The problem starts when a flag means more than that. When it implies a certain territory that another soverign country has and thats been fought over. When it implies a rightful claim to a people or territory that is mutually shared by another people. How many wars have been fought in the Balkans ? At least 3 times. We have not been the nicest to each other. These are the facts of the problem. Its not an opinion. That said I still dont see how that has any impact on how you should feel as a Macedonian. It shouldnt, but some people make it out as that is our goal.

[Onur]

SOM, with all due respect , there isnt any evidence to support the idea that the sunburst was a national symbol for the Ancient Macedonians. It was most likely a decorative symbol just like the many found on vases and what not.

No. The flags and the symbols depicting moon, sun, star and various animals are coming from the ancient world. These figures of nature gives us clues about the beliefs of ancient people before the mass imposition of semitic religions to the people. The sun figure represented on various ancient objects cannot be an only decorative symbol. It can only be a representation of a specific ancient society.

On the other hand, the flags like your Greek one with simple colored stripes are recent inventions in modern era.

[Voltron]

No. The flags and the symbols depicting moon, sun, star and various animals are coming from the ancient world. These figures of nature gives us clues about the beliefs of ancient people before the mass imposition of semitic religions to the people. The sun figure represented on various ancient objects cannot be an only decorative symbol. It can only be a representation of a specific ancient society.

Yes, thats true as well. I wasnt implying there is no meaning behind them.

On the other hand, the flags like your Greek one with simple colored stripes are recent inventions in modern era.

Well the Cross isnt a recent invention. The stripes are of course, just like the tri color flags of Europe and elsewhere.

[Stojacanec]

Andronikos made it out to be much more than it really was. The hype surrounding that finding and symbol still can still be felt today.



No, im not trying to dictate anything. Flags come and go. It just symoblises their modern state that they are living in throughout the times. It wasnt so long ago we had a Byzantine Flag. Before that it was probably something else. That doesnt mean we as a people change each time as well. So for me its not so much an issue. I like the Greek flag and I couldnt care less if it was German influenced or from an English shipping company. Its got the Cross that symbolises our faith as Byzantine inheritors. Blue and White my favorite colors and thats pretty much enough for me. We did not put any ancient symbols on it. So as you can see we first and formost acknowledge our Christian faith as Byzantines first rather than Antiquity which makes sense since its the most recent transition. Ottomans of course dont count since we are not an Islamic people.

The problem starts when a flag means more than that. When it implies a certain territory that another soverign country has and thats been fought over. When it implies a rightful claim to a people or territory that is mutually shared by another people. How many wars have been fought in the Balkans ? At least 3 times. We have not been the nicest to each other. These are the facts of the problem. Its not an opinion. That said I still dont see how that has any impact on how you should feel as a Macedonian. It shouldnt, but some people make it out as that is our goal.

Voltron, by highlighting to us that “Greece” doesn’t put ancient symbols on your English shipping company flag, I take that as you are directly trying to dictate to us what we should and shouldn’t put on our Macedonian flag.

You have interpreted the symbol on our flag to imply a certain territory claim. Do you know what imply means? Look it up. … One definition is to involve something unstated as a logical consequence.

So Greece as a nation has condemned another nation for something that is unstated.

Btw this is all under the presumption that modern Greeks own the rights to the ancient Macedonian symbol, which they don’t.

[Voltron]

Its not a Ancient Macedonian symbol only. Its been used by Greeks as well.

Yes, I do interpret it as an implied claim. Its not like you guys have any problem hiding it either.

[Daskalot]

Its not a Ancient Macedonian symbol only. Its been used by Greeks as well.

Yes, I do interpret it as an implied claim. Its not like you guys have any problem hiding it either.

Do Greeks have the exclusive right to the Christian symbol that is the Cross as well?