Nikola Gruevski

[Bill77]

A & B ) This is the whole issue of both countries fighting for bragging rights , my whole knowledge is that the land that Greece & Macedonia are sitting on is Macedonia , But people are fighting over who was there first with langauge etc.

If only it was that easy Anarchist, Greece would not have a chance.

[Anarchist]

Many people believe that the Marsians spy on the earth!? Does that has any political or realistic weight?

When was Macedonia state of Greece!? Which Greece?

In ancient times, there was no Greece in national state sense. In Medevial Times there was no Greece in the same sense. In Ottoman Time there was no Greece either!?

Which Greece does you people believe that Macedonia was part of!?

Part of Macedonia's territory became part of the Modern Greek State after 1913, when the wider part of the Macedonian region was partitioned in three parts!

But the region Macedonia in Greece is no unified administration unit. The region Macedonia in Greece is divided into three peripheries comprising thirteen prefectures . See more here.

So how come you speak of Macedonia as state of Greece!? To be a State, it has to have at least partial political authonomy and to be considered as one unit, which the region Macedonia incorporated in Greece lacks the later!

On the other hand, we don't believe that Macedonia as a region is a country, but the State, the Republic of Macedonia is a existing fully authonomus political entity! Only fools like you can deny that!

So no new name is needed, cause there is a clear distinction between the regional political entity's:

• The Republic of Macedonia = fully authonomus independent political state.
• West, Central Macedonia and Macedonia & Thrace = administration units (peripheries) inside of the Republic of Greece! No state at all!

You have to be dumb not to see the difference!

Q )Many people believe that the Marsians spy on the earth!? Does that has any political or realistic weight?

A) Pretty stupid question if you ask me what does this have to do with the Greek / Macedonian issue ?

1) In ancient times, there was no Greece in national state sense. In Medevial Times there was no Greece in the same sense. In Ottoman Time there was no Greece either!?

A) Then again, the nation-state is a purely modern phenomenon that was born out of the French Revolution, so there's nothing extraordinary about it. The name was officially revived by Greece when we liberated it in 1912.


Q ) Which Greece does you people believe that Macedonia was part of!?

A ) Obviously you're expecting me to answer with a racial slur , and i'd highly appreciate it if you didn't call us " you people ".

[Bill77]

i think Greece was liberated way before 1912. The date you speak of, is when Macedonia was devided by the foreign ocupiers. But the question is, who or what were these people that liberated Greece

[makedonin]

A) Pretty stupid question if you ask me what does this have to do with the Greek / Macedonian issue ?[/B]

Did I ask you !? No.. But let me chew it for you, cause you don't understand.. It is ironical comparation... It refers to the believes you people have!

A) Then again, the nation-state is a purely modern phenomenon that was born out of the French Revolution, so there's nothing extraordinary about it. The name was officially revived by Greece when we liberated it in 1912.

Officially revived, and than dumped off, than revived again etc. etc. long story isn't it. What was the real story.... Ups you forgot your self.. Lost in lies...

Macedonia as a region was called so years before 1913, before you people even laid a finger on it. It was no need for you to revive anything, it was already there.

So don't play so damn important.

Liberated it? Is that so... Why didn't you liberate the whole Macedonia, if it was yours!? Why share something which is yours with the others!? Tststs... Caught lying again.

A ) Obviously you're expecting me to answer with a racial slur , and i'd highly appreciate it if you didn't call us " you people ".

I don't expect anything from you... OK it is not completely true. I expect you to stop lying. But I would have to live long to see the day when that happen, isn't it? But when you do that, you will deserve to be called other than "you people". Even though I don't really care if I call you Greeks. All the same to me....

[Anarchist]

i think Greece was liberated way before 1912. The date you speak of, is when Macedonia was devided by the foreign ocupiers. But the question is, who or what were these people that liberated Greece

The Greeks obviously

But you will probably say that there were no Greeks at that time If thats what you were going to say then how come there was Ancient Greece then ?

"the countless diachronic references to the Greeks in the ancient, Byzantine and Ottoman eras beg to differ"

[Bill77]

The Greeks obviously

But you will probably say that there were no Greeks at that time If thats what you were going to say then how come there was Ancient Greece then ?

Yeh so they were told

[Anarchist]

Macedonia as a region was called so years before 1913, before you people even laid a finger on it. It was no need for you to revive anything, it was already there.

So don't play so damn important.

Liberated it? Is that so... Why didn't you liberate the whole Macedonia, if it was yours!? Why share something which is yours with the others!? Tststs... Caught lying again.

Any references to Macedonians before then were used in a purely geographic context. Well no, most of what is now Vardarska was never included in the Greek definition of Macedonia.

Unlike references to ethnic "Macedonians", which are nonexistent prior to the early-mid twentieth century. We liberated 90% of ancient Greek Macedonia, The rest was taken by the Serbs which were Greek allies.

And you're wrong makedonin , There was NEVER an Ottoman vilayet by the name of Macedonia.

Naturally, the name had always been kept alive by the Greeks, who were the only people ever to call themselves Macedonians until the practice was picked up by Bulgarian nationalists in the late nineteenth century. But in terms of official administrative regions, the first called Macedonia in modern times was the one in Greece.

Whichever way you look at it, the Greeks were the first to use the name "In bit" ( in both antiquity and modernity ) .


This is all written down discoveries in history , rather than discussing history from all the same people from your country , obviously you're going to get the same and biased opinion. Don't see why you're getting all fired up and pretty much abusing me because i admitted to being Greek , so obviously being Greek automatically makes me out to be a liar ! What are we 12 grow up.

[Bill77]

The Greeks obviously

But you will probably say that there were no Greeks at that time If thats what you were going to say then how come there was Ancient Greece then ?

"the countless diachronic references to the Greeks in the ancient, Byzantine and Ottoman eras beg to differ"

Ancient Greece is another matter and should not be confused with modern Greece or Greeks. Also we are discusing the liberation of Greece in the early to mid 1800's. to give us an idea who these liberaters or so called Greeks were, here is just one bit of information out of thousands available.

Quote: "But the revival was only for a time, and, in spite of Greek struggles, at the end of the tenth century [B]Sclavonians formed almost the entire population of Macedonia, Epirus, continental Greece and the Peloponnese…….It was during these centuries, that what remained, if indeed anything remained, of [B]even degenerate Hellenic blood absorbed or was absorbed into that of the Slav……Indeed, the Albanians appear to have done for Greece in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries something like that which that Sclavonians had done in the sixth and seventh….They number about 200,000 souls; and within a greater part of the districts occupied by Albanians at the present day the Greeks have been as completely expelled as the Celtic race in England by the Saxon".

(A Monthly Review – Greece, Spoilt Child of Europe)




I wander why The Bavarian King Otto first words on arival to Athens was "were are all the Greeks" after hearing every one speaking in Albanian

[makedonin]

Well no, most of what is now Vardarska was never included in the Greek definition of Macedonia.

And the "Greek" definition is the only one true. There we come again Marsians

Unlike references to ethnic "Macedonians", which are nonexistent prior to the early-mid twentieth century. We liberated 90% of ancient Greek Macedonia, The rest was taken by the Serbs which were Greek allies.

For puting the ethnic Macedonians in quotes, you are going out of here, soon.

As for your claim that there were no references to Macedonians prior that chosen time, you people were proved wrong, long time ago. Just do your self a favour and read bit more through the threads...

By the way, there was never such thing as Ancient Greek Macedonia, let alone that there was no such thing as Greece back than. Get to read some other books than your the Propagandist books of your government.

And you're wrong makedonin , There was NEVER an Ottoman vilayet by the name of Macedonia.

That is true, I never said that there was a Ottoman vilayet called Macedonia, where did i said that!? Ohhh yep, you are at it again, you are making things up.

And still there was Macedonia, geographically, in it's natural bounderys.
It was present in the Macedonians Folklore and Songs.

Naturally, the name had always been kept alive by the Greeks, who were the only people ever to call themselves Macedonians until the practice was picked up by Bulgarian nationalists in the late nineteenth century. But in terms of official administrative regions, the first called Macedonia in modern times was the one in Greece.

I am still to find a Greek calling them Macedonians prior to your NEWLLY ADDED GEOGRAPHICAL IDENTITY. Left alone, before XIX Century....

Only ever, heh, making things up again!? Which will be than, Greek or Macedonian, both don't go along together. Clown.

Which Bulgarian Nationalists do you refer to... It is unknown to me that some Bulgarian Nationalists were to give up their Bulgarian Name just to call them self Macedonians..

Show some references, I am curious which Bulgarians were those who were so Nationalistic that they dumped their Bulgarian Name to call them Macedonians!

This is all written down discoveries in history , rather than discussing history from all the same people from your country , obviously you're going to get the same and biased opinion. Don't see why you're getting all fired up and pretty much abusing me because i admitted to being Greek , so obviously being Greek automatically makes me out to be a liar ! What are we 12 grow up.

I ain't getting fiered up dude, I just shoot your lies back to you!

As for the biased, you have to jail or expel few more people in your country, just to save the Greekness of your country and Macedonia.

On the way, look if you find some forgoten town or village name that you have to rename, just to sound more Greek.

You are doing great, in some 1000 years your Katarevousa project might get it's fruits.

The same old story.

[makedonin]

By the way, it was nice playing with you, but have no time to waste with dump propagandists like you!

It has no effect anyway.

[Risto the Great]

Anarchist, you are starting to look very Greek.
You are having moments that show promise, but then lapse into some deluded beliefs that are so Greek that they hurt.

[Risto the Great]

Unlike references to ethnic "Macedonians", which are nonexistent prior to the early-mid twentieth century.

Did you just say you had some relatives that are Macedonian. They spoke Macedonian etc. Did this happen in the "early-mid twentieth century"? Why do we have to put up with you people?

Greeks calling themselves Macedonians .... laughable 20 years ago, laughable now. Oh, prior to that .... never happened.

[Anarchist]

Anarchist, you are starting to look very Greek.
You are having moments that show promise, but then lapse into some deluded beliefs that are so Greek that they hurt.

All im doing is responding from context from books , which are not written by Greeks so its not biased information.

Honestly i expected this coming into a Macedonian forum , but i want to learn from an unbiased source i guess this is the price i have to pay. I love the attention though , using small powerful words change peoples perspectives , all im trying to do is test the waters.

[Bill77]

Did you just say you had some relatives that are Macedonian. They spoke Macedonian etc. Did this happen in the "early-mid twentieth century"? Why do we have to put up with you people?

Greeks calling themselves Macedonians .... laughable 20 years ago, laughable now. Oh, prior to that .... never happened.

They are the kings of bullshit. You would think they would be good at it. Does not take long to expose them.

[Anarchist]

Did you just say you had some relatives that are Macedonian. They spoke Macedonian etc. Did this happen in the "early-mid twentieth century"? Why do we have to put up with you people?

Greeks calling themselves Macedonians .... laughable 20 years ago, laughable now. Oh, prior to that .... never happened.

Here we go again " You people " did i call you anything else apart from Macedonian ?

Im following the simple forum rules and not being a dictator. People have been fighting over history for hundreds of years , so we're not the first or the last people. Im here to learn and have a civil debate with people.