Nikola Gruevski

[vicsinad]

Vicsinad
How you have managed to extract that "Americans are failing miserably in communications" from the above link defies logic and demonstrates your contrarian views just for the sake of not having to accept that somebody else may actually be right or having to concede you may be wrong. Clearly the link is about Canadians so how you managed to distort the message to be about Americans is dumbfounding. Your inability to see things for what they are instead of delving into irrelevance until you find a defendable position, demonstrates a lack of mental maturity, IMHO.......then again I may just be being spiteful, according to your interpretation.

Chukalo used an example to support why a country should have an official language. The USA does not have an official language. So, if his logic holds water, then the same should be seen in America as is seen in Quebec.

But then again, he used a link that he thought supported his cause but in fact didn't because Quebec does have an official language -- it is French.

This has nothing to do with being right. Let me try one more time for you:

1. Quebec has an official language. How does his link support his position that spitefulness is created when there is no official language when his link is dealing with an area with one official language?

2. The USA does not have an official language. Chukalo stated that his link was evidence for why a country should have an official language. Can he find concrete and legitimate support for such claims in a country that does not have an official language if his claim is true?

[vicsinad]

This naive idea that a (modern) state can function without its citizens speaking a common language (noted there are some like the US that do not have an official language on paper but have one in practice) is more than simple naivetey. Its plain ridiculous. Governments, institutions, emergency services etc cannot function with staff not being able to understand each other.

Is Switzerland a modern state? Yes.
How many official languages does Switzerland have? Four.

I guess that's naivety and ridiculousness.

Ah yes, but the MTO doesn't believe in analogies and comparisons. Further, they do not believe in fully reading someone's posts.

[vicsinad]

Victor's views that local communities should determine their own common language only highlights the fact that a common language is still needed, regardless of the size of the territorial unit. Even at the local level, with mixed ethnicities (such is the case in Macedonia) local government, local institutions, emergency services etc cannot function without a common language. All Victor is doing is shifting the problem from a national level to a local one without actually solving anything.

.

Of course, you still cannot comprehend what I wrote. Or you choose to be a liar. I said that I don't believe a country needs an official language or that one should need to speak the language of the majority in order to be a citizen. And I did say that for certain services and functions, a common language or mode of communication is necessary. But requiring the usage of a common language in certain situations is much different then requiring citizens to know the majority language and a place having an official language.

[Vangelovski]

Of course, you still cannot comprehend what I wrote. Or you choose to be a liar. I said that I don't believe a country needs an official language or that one should need to speak the language of the majority in order to be a citizen. And I did say that for certain services and functions, a common language or mode of communication is necessary. But requiring the usage of a common language in certain situations is much different then requiring citizens to know the majority language and a place having an official language.

Victor, I don't think you've quite got a grasp of what you're saying.

How are these citizens - who work as civil servants, policemen, doctors, nurses etc - mean't to participate in society and function properly in their jobs without having a common language? I'm not even talking about an 'official' language now, just one that they can all understand.

[Vangelovski]

Is Switzerland a modern state? Yes.
How many official languages does Switzerland have? Four.

I guess that's naivety and ridiculousness.

Ah yes, but the MTO doesn't believe in analogies and comparisons. Further, they do not believe in fully reading someone's posts.

Do you even know what you are arguing any more? Until now you were stating that a state does not need an official language. Now you are saying that it does? Of course Switzerland has four official languages. It even has official languages for each of its cantons. I'm glad that you have finally come around and accepted that there is a need for an official language...or are you just confused?

[vicsinad]

Victor, I don't think you've quite got a grasp of what you're saying.

How are these citizens - who work as civil servants, policemen, doctors, nurses etc - mean't to participate in society and function properly in their jobs without having a common language?

Your failure to comprehend and read what I've written is your fault and your fault alone. You purposefully choose to incorrectly rephrase what I've written. That's intellectual dishonesty.

[vicsinad]

Do you even know what you are arguing any more? Until now you were stating that a state does not need an official language. Now you are saying that it does? Of course Switzerland has four official languages. It even has official languages for each of its cantons. I'm glad that you have finally come around and accepted that there is a need for an official language...or are you just confused?

I think you're confused. So now you're saying that Macedonia should have Albanian be the official language where Albanians form the majority of the population?

But you said this:

"This naive idea that a (modern) state can function without its citizens speaking a common language (noted there are some like the US that do not have an official language on paper but have one in practice) is more than simple naivetey. Its plain ridiculous."

In Switzerland, a modern state, its citizens don't speak a common language. And it still functions, as a state, despite different regions utilizing different languages.

[Vangelovski]

I think you're confused. So now you're saying that Macedonia should have Albanian be the official language where Albanians form the majority of the population?

But you said this:

"This naive idea that a (modern) state can function without its citizens speaking a common language (noted there are some like the US that do not have an official language on paper but have one in practice) is more than simple naivetey. Its plain ridiculous."

In Switzerland, a modern state, its citizens don't speak a common language. And it still functions, as a state, despite different regions utilizing different languages.

Victor, my point about Switzerland was that it has set official languages, it was not a comment on the number of languages. It was pointing out your confused and contradictory thinking. On the one hand you claim that a state does not need a common language, on the other you acknowledge that it does (even if at the local level) and that the local communities should determine what that is. You even used Switzerland as an example to show that a common language is required. This is confusion and just contradictory.

Your problem is that you are still worming and attempting to conceal your support for the FA. You are in complete agreement with the FA - strong local autonomy, if not outright independence, and the common language to be determined at the local level.

Your disingenious claim that an entity (whether at the national or local level) or an institution/organisation does not need a common language is just an attempt to deny that Macedonian should be the official language in Macedonia. You don't actually believe that a common language is not needed because by your own admission you think that the local community should determine on what their common language will be and you admit that government, institutions, emergency services etc cannot function without one.

This whole convoluted discussion has been your continued attempt to worm around the FA and admit your support for it.

I ask everyone that they do not get into Victor's irrelevant discussions and stick to getting him to address the question of his support for the FA.

[vicsinad]

Victor, my point about Switzerland was that it has set official languages, it was not a comment on the number of languages. It was pointing out your confused and contradictory thinking. On the one hand you claim that a state does not need a common language, on the other you acknowledge that it does (even if at the local level) and that the local communities should determine what that is. You even used Switzerland as an example to show that a common language is required. This is confusion and just contradictory.

Your problem is that you are still worming and attempting to conceal your support for the FA. You are in complete agreement with the FA - strong local autonomy, if not outright independence, and the common language to be determined at the local level.

Your disingenious claim that an entity (whether at the national or local level) or an institution/organisation does not need a common language is just an attempt to deny that Macedonian should be the official language in Macedonia. You don't actually believe that a common language is not needed because by your own admission you think that the local community should determine on what their common language will be and you admit that government, institutions, emergency services etc cannot function without one.

No, I stated that hospitals should use a common language AMONGST THE MEDICAL STAFF to improve efficiency. I also stated that what this common language is should be determined by the citizens if it's a publicly funded hospital and the donors or the board if it is a private hospital. This, in no way, suggests that one hospital should or will use the same language as the next. It also does not suggest that one should be required to use the majority language in order to be a citizen of that community nor does it suggest that there should be an official language.

Either you are incompetent or a liar. I think you're both.

[vicsinad]

This whole convoluted discussion has been your continued attempt to worm around the FA and admit your support for it.

I ask everyone that they do not get into Victor's irrelevant discussions and stick to getting him to address the question of his support for the FA.

You really need to see a shrink.

[Risto the Great]

No, I stated that hospitals should use a common language AMONGST THE MEDICAL STAFF to improve efficiency. I also stated that what this common language is should be determined by the citizens if it's a publicly funded hospital and the donors or the board if it is a private hospital. This, in no way, suggests that one hospital should or will use the same language as the next. It also does not suggest that one should be required to use the majority language in order to be a citizen of that community nor does it suggest that there should be an official language.

I think private Macedonian hospital staff should use the common language of Bantu. It seems cool and it definitely isn't Macedonian which now just no longer makes sense thanks to vicsinad's sage theories.

I don't really get it, I probably need to visit the USA to get some "reasonableness" back into my life. I wish I spoke more Spanish, I could have learned so much from those guys flapping those (English) cards in Vegas.

[Vangelovski]

No, I stated that hospitals should use a common language AMONGST THE MEDICAL STAFF to improve efficiency. I also stated that what this common language is should be determined by the citizens if it's a publicly funded hospital and the donors or the board if it is a private hospital. This, in no way, suggests that one hospital should or will use the same language as the next. It also does not suggest that one should be required to use the majority language in order to be a citizen of that community nor does it suggest that there should be an official language.

Either you are incompetent or a liar. I think you're both.

Victor, you then acknowledged that hospital staff are shared between hospitals and it would not be practical for them not to have a common national language. You also cannot seem to understand that municipalities in Macedonia are mixed, so the resident doctors and nurses would not speak the same language. Many of these municipalities only have one hospital and with staff speaking different languages and also working in the hospitals of other municipalities you are basically advocating chaos. But on the other hand you think that local communities should decide on a common language!?!?!?!? WTF?

Victor, do you suppor the FA or not? What "rights" specifically do you support for the Albanians in Macedonia? These are the key questions here, not your BS theories on local communities speaking but not understanding and whatever else the fuck you are trying to blow smoke around.

[vicsinad]

Victor, you then acknowledged that hospital staff are shared between hospitals and it would not be practical for them not to have a common national language. You also cannot seem to understand that municipalities in Macedonia are mixed, so the resident doctors and nurses would not speak the same language. Many of these municipalities only have one hospital and with staff speaking different languages and also working in the hospitals of other municipalities you are basically advocating chaos. But on the other hand you think that local communities should decide on a common language!?!?!?!? WTF?

With regards to your first sentence, I stated this:

"But, as in reality, medical staff move around the region, country and world so more problems arise. I still think it should be left up to the citizens who fund the hospital in the public system and those who control it and run it in the private system."

Where did I say anything about a common national language? Are you incompetent or a liar?

No, I am not advocating chaos by suggesting that, with regards to publicly funded hospitals, the citizens who primarily fund the hospitals (and I guess I would argue, the citizens who primarily receive the benefits of the hospital) should determine the common language that is used within that hospital.

You are confusing yourself, Tom.

[makedonche]

Chukalo used an example to support why a country should have an official language. The USA does not have an official language. So, if his logic holds water, then the same should be seen in America as is seen in Quebec.

No he actually used an example of what happens when a common language is not used, albeit by choice/out of spite, official language was not the point of his link. His logic holds plenty of water and the same should be seen everywhere, not just in America or Canada!

But then again, he used a link that he thought supported his cause but in fact didn't because Quebec does have an official language -- it is French.

Official language is irrelevant to the link, that is merely your interpretation, which is incorrect (since it's not about right or wrong) the link demonstrates a potential risk to life because of a spiteful act from someone who is charged with caring for and protecting life and providing aid to all, not just those who speak his language of choice!
This has nothing to do with being right. Let me try one more time for you:

1. Quebec has an official language. How does his link support his position that spitefulness is created when there is no official language when his link is dealing with an area with one official language?

At no stage did he state that spitefulness was created due to a lack of official language - he provided a link to a story that demonstrates the potential for misunderstanding when communication is flawed, out of spite - the spite came first out of choice by an employed ambulance officer, not out of lack of an official language!

2. The USA does not have an official language. Chukalo stated that his link was evidence for why a country should have an official language. Can he find concrete and legitimate support for such claims in a country that does not have an official language if his claim is true?

He provided you a concrete and legitimate example why a communication difficulty, caused by spite, demonstrates potential difficulties when a common language is withheld by choice - not imposed by virtue of being "official"

[Vangelovski]

Victor,

What minority "rights" do you support for the Albanians in Macedonia?