Nikola Gruevski

[Vangelovski]

Victor, you seem to have forgotten to research the Macedonian situation before you answered...or any organisation for that matter with a system of command and control.

The Macedonian military and police are not a grand coalition between various states. The army basically has no units larger than a battalion. Its mostly made up of small units that have no time for interpreters in the heat of battle.

Further, as per the quota system under the FA (or what is known as "proportional representation", Albanians, many who don't know Macedonian, are being fast-tracked into the Military and Police (which are both national, not local, institutions). There is a language divide with is not only institutionalising segregation between the Macedonians and Albanians, but affecting the effective funcitoning of these two (among other) services.

But lets move to another service I mentioned initially - hospitals. How exactly is a doctor (lets say he only speaks Albanian) mean't to perform an emergency operation with a group of nurses who only speak Macedonian. I'm really looking forward to hearing you crack inspired theory on this one.

[George S.]

Vicsinad if people are working together as Tom has pointed out you need a common language that everyone should speak.Seeing that you are in macedonia you should speak macedonian first.Then if you want to speak albanian or any minority language you can learn it.But the main one should be macedonian.Also can you tell me since albanians have come on soil or any minority has prevented in some way to learn their language.Also look at the way albanians don't respect us ali ahmeti can speak macedonian but decides not to only speaking albanian through an interpretr.Isn't that ridiculous only if are albanian & you don't respect macedonians. If the two sides be it albanian or macedonian don't respect each other,then they should learn to respect each other.

[vicsinad]

But lets move to another service I mentioned initially - hospitals. How exactly is a doctor (lets say he only speaks Albanian) mean't to perform an emergency operation with a group of nurses who only speak Macedonian. I'm really looking forward to hearing you crack inspired theory on this one.

Well, I think it is irresponsible for any medical staff to be assembled in a manner which they cannot communicate with each other. Regardless of the language spoken, if they cannot communicate, it is a disservice to their patients as it does hinder their work. So if an Albanian doctor or nurse won't learn Macedonian simply to make a political point, he is jeopardizing the very integrity of the profession he practices (or at least his dedication to it).

But let's back up to my initial comments. I said it shouldn't be required that an ethnic Albanian living in Macedonia know Macedonian. I also stated this a few posts earlier:

"And not having an official language does not mean that workers should not have to know one language or both languages."

If the hospital is private, it's up to the hiring body to decide communication (languages) between staff. If it is state run, I still assume it's about to the board, though I'm sure state law is going to rule on this matter. But that's why I prefer the control to be given to the local community, so that those who run the community funded hospital (along with the citizens) can dictate what they need and want out of their hospital staff for efficiency purposes. If the hospital is mostly comprised of local talent, and 85% of the citizens speak one language, I'm sure the local citizens will declare that language as the required one. If it's 50/50, I'm sure they'll find some novel system.

But, as in reality, medical staff move around the region, country and world so more problems arise. I still think it should be left up to the citizens who fund the hospital in the public system and those who control it and run it in the private system.

[Vangelovski]

Well, I think it is irresponsible for any medical staff to be assembled in a manner which they cannot communicate with each other. Regardless of the language spoken, if they cannot communicate, it is a disservice to their patients as it does hinder their work. So if an Albanian doctor or nurse won't learn Macedonian simply to make a political point, he is jeopardizing the very integrity of the profession he practices (or at least his dedication to it).

But let's back up to my initial comments. I said it shouldn't be required that an ethnic Albanian living in Macedonia know Macedonian. I also stated this a few posts earlier:

"And not having an official language does not mean that workers should not have to know one language or both languages."

If the hospital is private, it's up to the hiring body to decide communication (languages) between staff. If it is state run, I still assume it's about to the board, though I'm sure state law is going to rule on this matter. But that's why I prefer the control to be given to the local community, so that those who run the community funded hospital (along with the citizens) can dictate what they need and want out of their hospital staff for efficiency purposes. If the hospital is mostly comprised of local talent, and 85% of the citizens speak one language, I'm sure the local citizens will declare that language as the required one. If it's 50/50, I'm sure they'll find some novel system.

But, as in reality, medical staff move around the region, country and world so more problems arise. I still think it should be left up to the citizens who fund the hospital in the public system and those who control it and run it in the private system.

Victor, I think confusion reigns in your world. Basically you've admitted that it is impractical, but still promote your BS view that a common language is not needed. On what basis, who knows? Perhaps its just your fondness for Albanians or perhaps it has something to do with you obviously not having any understanding of the specific circumstances in Macedonia whatsoever. Keep thinking that some "novel" system will be found. So far all that has been found is segregation and systems within systems...much like Kosovo.

You're latest post is even further confirmation that you do support the privileges under the FA

[Chiche]

Albanians living in Macedonia!!!!!! If you are not a Macedonian Citizen and have a basic knowledge of the Macedonian language FINE! but, No Pension, No right to own property and NO VOTE!!!!! Do not like that, go live in Albania!!!!

[makedonche]

Albanians living in Macedonia!!!!!! If you are not a Macedonian Citizen and have a basic knowledge of the Macedonian language FINE! but, No Pension, No right to own property and NO VOTE!!!!! Do not like that, go live in Albania!!!!

Chiche
Great idea....simple and effective! Then just tear up the Framework Agreement and send them packing!

[George S.]

Fully agree with chiche & makedonche.If they don't like it start packing. two choices either albania or kosovo.

[vicsinad]

Victor, I think confusion reigns in your world. Basically you've admitted that it is impractical, but still promote your BS view that a common language is not needed. On what basis, who knows? Perhaps its just your fondness for Albanians or perhaps it has something to do with you obviously not having any understanding of the specific circumstances in Macedonia whatsoever. Keep thinking that some "novel" system will be found. So far all that has been found is segregation and systems within systems...much like Kosovo.

You're latest post is even further confirmation that you do support the privileges under the FA

No, confusion does not reign.

A) I admitted that it is impractical for people in certain situations and environments (and there is definitely a scale) to accomplish their goals and needs without a common language.

B) As I stated a couple of times, one should not have to know the language of the majority in order to be a citizen of a country. Further, I believe countries should not have any official languages.

C) I do have an understanding of the specific circumstances in Macedonia, though I doubt I have the amount of knowledge that you do about specific circumstances.

D) You're entitled to your opinion.

[Big Chukalo]

B) As I stated a couple of times, one should not have to know the language of the majority in order to be a citizen of a country. Further, I believe countries should not have any official languages.

Maybe the silliest statement I have ever read.

Unless you want to end up with this kind of spiteful behaviour, a country should have one official language...no more and no less.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/quebec-parents-say-paramedic-refused-to-speak-english-1.1007880

[George S.]

Caught you out again vicsan if there was no macedonian nation yes by all means don't have any language but there is a nation & state in existence it should have a language called macedonian.You have been caught denying macedonian rights to a nation & state through your particular vision of FA Badinter you are taking away macedonian rights or soveregnity.
That means you know its a nation & state allready but you choose to ignore that!

[George S.]

Macedonian people need to determine their status as a nation & state without the interference from minorities or anybody else .what we have is interference with fa & badinter.

[vicsinad]

Maybe the silliest statement I have ever read.

Unless you want to end up with this kind of spiteful behaviour, a country should have one official language...no more and no less.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/quebec-...lish-1.1007880

Are you suggesting that the United States is failing miserably in communications amongst medical personnel and between medical personnel and patients because the United States does not have an official language? If so, do you have any proof, correlation, or cause and effect?

And, in the link your provided, who is demonstrating spiteful behavior -- the paramedics or the parents? Furthermore, Quebec has an official language -- it's French. So how does this story relate to a country needing an official language or it will end up with spiteful behavior? Rather, this is an example of a place having an official language and spitefulness still existing.

So, maybe you just posted one of the silliest post I have ever read. But me saying that might be out of spite. I don't know.

[makedonche]

Maybe the silliest statement I have ever read.

Unless you want to end up with this kind of spiteful behaviour, a country should have one official language...no more and no less.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/quebec-...lish-1.1007880

Big Chukalo
Great quote and very pertinent link, clearly demonstrates "spite" in action in a situation which could quite have easily turned into disaster because of this spite, good example of the essence of clear communication based on common language.

[makedonche]

Are you suggesting that the United States is failing miserably in communications amongst medical personnel and between medical personnel and patients because the United States does not have an official language? If so, do you have any proof, correlation, or cause and effect?

And, in the link your provided, who is demonstrating spiteful behavior -- the paramedics or the parents? Furthermore, Quebec has an official language -- it's French. So how does this story relate to a country needing an official language or it will end up with spiteful behavior? Rather, this is an example of a place having an official language and spitefulness still existing.

So, maybe you just posted one of the silliest post I have ever read. But me saying that might be out of spite. I don't know.

Vicsinad
How you have managed to extract that "Americans are failing miserably in communications" from the above link defies logic and demonstrates your contrarian views just for the sake of not having to accept that somebody else may actually be right or having to concede you may be wrong. Clearly the link is about Canadians so how you managed to distort the message to be about Americans is dumbfounding. Your inability to see things for what they are instead of delving into irrelevance until you find a defendable position, demonstrates a lack of mental maturity, IMHO.......then again I may just be being spiteful, according to your interpretation.

[Vangelovski]

This naive idea that a (modern) state can function without its citizens speaking a common language (noted there are some like the US that do not have an official language on paper but have one in practice) is more than simple naivetey. Its plain ridiculous. Governments, institutions, emergency services etc cannot function with staff not being able to understand each other.

Victor's views that local communities should determine their own common language only highlights the fact that a common language is still needed, regardless of the size of the territorial unit. Even at the local level, with mixed ethnicities (such is the case in Macedonia) local government, local institutions, emergency services etc cannot function without a common language. All Victor is doing is shifting the problem from a national level to a local one without actually solving anything.

But more importantly, what Victor is promoting really does betray his support for the Framework Agreement. The FA provides for far reaching decentralisation with strong local power and it allows the local municipalities to determine the local official language (i.e. Albanian) alongside the Macedonian language. However, Victor goes even further - he is suggesting that Macedonian not even be a local language. He does this by stating he does not believe in an official national language and that the local community should soley determine what their common language should be (i.e. Albanian).

Either Victor has not read the FA and he doesn't even know that he supports it, or he has and he has been lying this whole time.