South Australian Premier Mike Rann, an enemy to Macedonians

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't see you curbing the use of profanity by members of this forum against anyone else, especially me, so don't act all pious now.

You chose to put yourself in the gutter, don't look to blame others when you are spoken to in kind. I choose not to speak to you like that, and you will afford me the same courtesy, wether you like it or not.

It was a general statement and not a literal inference, that hardly qualifies as lying.

You're kidding me, so now even you are exempt from being accountable for your own statements? How much further will you descend into this pathetic spiral of lies and denials? You have zero credibility.

Quote for me where I stated that I am for a name change or anywhere that i defended it.

You shamelessly defend a shameful act. It is all over the forum, you want a quote? Take a look at every post you have made in honour of Meto Koloski. I know, I know, they are only 'general' statements, give me a break, I am dealing with a bunch of galas here who don't want to be responsible for what they write, how on earth do you expect people to take what you say seriously?

You hate the fact that I support UMD so you have to create lies about me.

You have come into the firing line as a by-product of the fact that you support an organisation that I oppose on key issues of national importance. I have told no lies, your statements speak for themselves.

Has the UMD accepted or adopted policies in favor of the Democratic prefix? Has the UMD even mentioned the Democratic prefix outside of the ZMR interview?

I can see what game you're playing Buktop, and I can assure you of one thing, it will cease soon, you won't be permitted to endlessly trash our threads with your manipulative lies and deceitful propaganda. You're looking for a technicality to worm your way out of this point also, perhaps we should all dismiss everything that Meto says from now on until an official UMD statement comes out? What a joke. Da ti se sram.

SoM has not avoided it, you choose not to read his response properly.

Says you and the 99% of the other people here. Buktop seems to be living in his own UMD fantasy. It's as if Obama goes around making statements claiming that the invasion of other countries by the US was wrong, and then his administration declares the increase of troops in those same countries. It's all, typically, banana politics from the UMD and its apologists, like Buktop.

I am not persisting with anything SoM, this thread was about a Greek politician in SA, then I asked a legitimate question and people decided to attack me.......

Oh please, spare me your pathetic explanations, like I said before, nobody is buying it, everybody saw what you wrote and the manner in which it was written, your post was full of anti-Australian spite that only a UMD apologist like yourself can muster.

If it isn't clear yet, let me make it perfectly so. 99% of this forum is not happy with the UMD's statements concerning our identity and integrity, your continual whining isn't going to change the sentiment of anybody here, so, if you believe your purpose is to represent the UMD at the MTO in the absence of actual UMD board members who are now so deep in their own lies they hardly dare to stick out their necks, you have served your purpose. Yes, we know you support the UMD, yes, we know that you are an UMD apologist, yes, we know that you and Meto Koloski are good friends.

Anything else you want to get off your chest, at the risk of repeating the same garbage yet again?

[Buktop]

In a public meeting with me, the UMD via Koloski stated it was a mistake then justified the "mistake" and obviously continues to do so. SoM has not avoided it, you choose not to read his response properly.

I asked a question that simply required a yes or no answer, he has avoided answering the questions directly, even though I am sure you both know the answers. I did not choose not to read it properly, his responses to me are becoming more aggressive and accusatory.

If you are upset with the manner of the statement then you know I have no control over that. If you are still upset with him then you have every right to be. I personally am not upset with the response because whether or not he justifies what he did, he no longer supports it.

The "mistake" I made when apologising to you was the same "mistake" the UMD made. Pretty empty I am sure you would agree. At the very least, there is a significant question mark over my sentiment that will be very difficult to remove irrespective of my future comments.

And I respect your opinion, I am not trying to convince you of otherwise, when someone chases me across the forum because I support UMD and constantly asks me questions about UMD, I give my opinion. I am not here to speak on behalf of UMD or change public opinion of UMD.

If I am asked a question I will respond.

[Vangelovski]

Buktop,

UMD has defended the Democratic prefix outside of the ZMR interview and you very well know that. In fact, they have also defended the FYROM name:

"We have to be realistic, Macedonia if it wants to join NATO and EU it has to join under a modified name for those organizations ONLY.

How happy are you that we are called "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in NATO, UN, and EU? I'm not....wouldn't you prefer us to be called something like Democratic Republic of Macedonia instead, IF ALL ELSE FAILS, of course? I sure would. However, until all else fails, our position is double formula".

Meto Koloski
13 March 2008
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Macedo.../message/10565


"Let me ask you this? What will you choose?

People in Macedonia dying and starving or “Democratic Republic of Macedonia”?

Denis Manevski, UMD Treasurer
17 March 2008
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Macedo.../message/10643


"If the government did not agree on FYROM in 1995, we would have been 10 years behind right now. Macedonia would still be under embargo and 20,000 people would have been without a job".

Denis Manevski, UMD Treasurer
11 March 2008
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Macedo.../message/10536

[Soldier of Macedon]

I did not choose not to read it properly, his responses to me are becoming more aggressive and accusatory.

Because each of your posts is filled with the same denials, you've completely discredited yourself, Buktop, your motivation seems to be nothing more than 'inaet', you have no intention of admitting to your own mistakes yet you are willing to create fictional statements in support of Meto's shameful suggestions regarding Macedonia's name.

I am not here to speak on behalf of UMD or change public opinion of UMD.

Of course you are. Anybody that searches your contribution to this forum will clearly identify 95% + of your posts as either representation or defence of the UMD. You are disappointed that hardly anybody here agrees with your support for certain actions of the UMD, the truth has a way of summoning such emotions.

[Soldier of Macedon]

"If the government did not agree on FYROM in 1995, we would have been 10 years behind right now. Macedonia would still be under embargo and 20,000 people would have been without a job".

Denis Manevski, UMD Treasurer
11 March 2008
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Macedo.../message/10536

Da ne sne deset godini ponapred sega, slucaino? This is the type of scare-mongering and justification of treachery that should alert every Macedonian in the world about the UMD's sentiments. It's like these jesters think that whatever they say today automatically erases what was said yesterday, disgraceful.

[Buktop]

You chose to put yourself in the gutter, don't look to blame others when you are spoken to in kind. I choose not to speak to you like that, and you will afford me the same courtesy, wether you like it or not.

SoM, I must disagree with the assertion that you have spoken to me in kind. Just because your post is absent of profanity does not make it kind. You have attacked everything from my character, my morals, my intent, my credibility and several other things, that is fine, you have every right to call me what you like, but do not get upset when I use profanity, especially when it is not directed at yourself.

You're kidding me, so now even you are exempt from being accountable for your own statements? How much further will you descend into this pathetic spiral of lies and denials? You have zero credibility.

I am 100% accountable of my own statements, I am telling you that my statement was not a literal assertion but a general statement, even Risto stated above that he acknowledged his mistake.

You shamelessly defend a shameful act. It is all over the forum, you want a quote? Take a look at every post you have made in honour of Meto Koloski. I know, I know, they are only 'general' statements, give me a break, I am dealing with a bunch of galas here who don't want to be responsible for what they write, how on earth do you expect people to take what you say seriously?

Once again, I am 100% accountable for every post I have made, can you show me which one of my posts I defend the Democratic prefix or the fact that Meto was in support of it?

You have come into the firing line as a by-product of the fact that you support an organisation that I oppose on key issues of national importance. I have told no lies, your statements speak for themselves.

And we disagree on this aspect, that is no reason to crucify me for it.

I can see what game you're playing Buktop, and I can assure you of one thing, it will cease soon, you won't be permitted to endlessly trash our threads with your manipulative lies and deceitful propaganda. You're looking for a technicality to worm your way out of this point also, perhaps we should all dismiss everything that Meto says from now on until an official UMD statement comes out? What a joke. Da ti se sram.

SoM, I have not detracted from any thread, in this particular thread I ASKED A QUESTION, it is not my fault that no one wanted to answer it. I felt, as a Macedonian in the diaspora, that it was a relevant question. I cannot control the response I receive from other members.

Then you were the one that involved the Democratic Prefix in this thread, not me. In several responses to you I said I do not wish to speak about this issue because we had already spoken, you persisted and I stated let's start another thread or speak via PM so as not to derail the thread. I will quote the posts if you would like, but you are more than capable of finding them in this thread.

Nemojsh da mi kazish deka jas te chepnav, ti si vo kriv za ova rabota.

Says you and the 99% of the other people here. Buktop seems to be living in his own UMD fantasy. It's as if Obama goes around making statements claiming that the invasion of other countries by the US was wrong, and then his administration declares the increase of troops in those same countries. It's all, typically, banana politics from the UMD and its apologists, like Buktop.

And you also refuse to understand what I am writing to you, could it be that the English in Australia and the USA are not the same English?

SoM, have I insulted your character in anyway? Have I personally attacked you? You cannot honestly say that this response was made in "kind".

Oh please, spare me your pathetic explanations, like I said before, nobody is buying it, everybody saw what you wrote and the manner in which it was written, your post was full of anti-Australian spite that only a UMD apologist like yourself can muster.

Pathetic explanations? If I was really going to attack an Australian organization do you really think there would be any doubt of what I said? I understand that tensions run high on the forum, especially concerning Diaspora organizations at this point, but does asking questions constitute an attack? They were serious questions, I don't know what is going on in SA, I don't know that AMHRC doesn't have volunteers in SA, I asked a simple question, and I had to wait 7 pages until Risto was kind enough to answer me. If you want to assume that I am anti-Australian Macedonian just because I support UMD then there are some serious issues that need to be dealt with.

If it isn't clear yet, let me make it perfectly so. 99% of this forum is not happy with the UMD's statements concerning our identity and integrity, your continual whining isn't going to change the sentiment of anybody here, so, if you believe your purpose is to represent the UMD at the MTO in the absence of actual UMD board members who are now so deep in their own lies they hardly dare to stick out their necks, you have served your purpose. Yes, we know you support the UMD, yes, we know that you are an UMD apologist, yes, we know that you and Meto Koloski are good friends.

Once again, let me make MYSELF perfectly clear. You were the one asking me the questions, you brought up the Democratic prefix dispute in this thread, not me. I tried to avoid this discussion, and once I couldn't I asked if you wanted to create a different thread. You continued asking me questions so I responded. I am not here to change opinions or to apologize for anything. When you ask me questions I give my answers, if you don't like the answers don't ask me the questions. For you to assume that I started this debate as an attempt to change your opinion on UMD is ludicrous, if you want I will quote the relevant posts.

Anything else you want to get off your chest, at the risk of repeating the same garbage yet again?

If you feel the need to keep chasing me with the same questions you will get the same answers, that is not my fault, I think we should agree to disagree and move on because as Rogi stated before this argument is getting nowhere and it is only serving to raise resentment between us. I will not comment anymore on the Democratic prefix, you have my opinion and my feelings on the subject.

[Risto the Great]

Well, there is an half-page advertisement in today's Advertiser. It is from a coalition of 3 different Macedonian organisations in Adelaide. I wonder how they split the bill???

I note they used my text transcription of Rann's speech ... where is the love? ... lol

I wish they wrote MACEDONIA much larger, all the text was a little small and did not draw the eye as much as it could have. I will try to scan later on.

I note no mention of the official complaint instigated by the AMHRC and feel that its omission is disappointing.

[Grotius]

RtG,

I have not seen the ad, but I am sure it would have cost a fair bit ie: half a page.

I question the strategy here. A lot of money, the Greeks are likely to spend double for an even bigger ad next week. What have we achieved in the end? I would have thought if people had money to spend on the cause, there might be things that will produce an actual outcome, or the very least, a better outcome - say contributing to the legal costs in the action against Rann to declare him a 'racist'. This in turn can generate its own publicity - free of charge!!

Also, I agree if we chose this path, surely mentioning that the AMHRC is taking legal action against the Premier might cause people to look twice.

[julie]

Its requesting an apology by the premier in a public manner, and requests for this to be done within 7 days, in a former post the AMHRC had requested Macedonia Community of SA to request this, so perhaps it may be strategic to assist the action perhaps. Am sure that this was not something that was entered into lightly, nor without consultation, and the cost would have been exorbitant here too.
I wish I had the IT literacy to scan the page from the advertiser.

[julie]

Was also pleasing to see all the associations working together

[Prolet]

AMAC letter of support for Mike Rann

It seems like they are very busy writing letters.

Wednesday, 10th February 2010


Dear Hon. Mike Rann (Premier of South Australia),

I hope this letter finds you well and in good health. I am writing to offer my sincerest appreciation in your continual dauntless and unwavering support of matters deemed of the utmost importance to the Australian-Greek community.

The last instance was a courageous speech given last year in which you asserted that “no one is entitled to steal another nation’s history or culture” and condemned President Ivanov of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) for his pursuit of fallacies and misinformation. As a consequence of the aforementioned axiom, your government will remain ‘firm and unswerving” in its support of the Hellenic plight.

As you are clearly aware, the FYROM insists on violating international practices prescribed by the UN by casting its dark veil of propaganda over the masses in campaigns of outright malevolence against the integrity and importance of Hellenic history in southern Europe. For the sake of their own survival in the Balkan region, they deliberately mislead and misinform their own people on historical matters. Furthermore, an absence of natural curiosity for self-investigation on the part of many people and the inertia of the Hellenic Republic in disambiguating the matter has precipitated a climate conducive to dangerous activities both in Australia and abroad.

Your lengthy dissertations on historical truth and your endless pursuit of it are commendable amidst the unjust activities which sometimes recall wartime propaganda. Any serious historian or scholar involved in critical inquiry will be able to honestly disclose the inextricable link between the kingdom of Ancient Macedonia (of which the legacy of Alexander the Great and the Macedonian kings formed a critical part) and modern Greece. The modern Hellenes are indisputably the rightful heirs of the Ancient Macedonian culture, and the history of Macedonia (the geographical region) is an integral part of Hellenic civilisation–its actors were the Macedonian Greeks, from before Alexander the Great to the Greeks of the Byzantine Empire and the contemporary ones (http://macedonia-evidence.org/).

The Australian Macedonian Advisory Council encourages you to continue to disclose the truth of the matter publically, stressing the Hellenic descent of Alexander the Great and of ancient Macedonia at appropriate times and venues. Your ongoing support for the true representation of Hellenic history and culture in Australia do not go unnoticed by all members of the Greek Diaspora who stand before you in awe and admiration.



My sincerest regards,



Executive Director

Australian Macedonian Advisory Council

http://www.macedonian.com.au/About_us/action_alerts/Letter_to_Mike_Rann_Feb_2010/

[osiris]

prolet already posted by some one

[Prolet]

Osiris, Where? I havnt seen it

[MP_MK]

This may help:

http://www.slideshare.net/secret/lP7gu8SN0wh4zc

[MP_MK]

RtG,

I have not seen the ad, but I am sure it would have cost a fair bit ie: half a page.

I question the strategy here. A lot of money, the Greeks are likely to spend double for an even bigger ad next week. What have we achieved in the end? I would have thought if people had money to spend on the cause, there might be things that will produce an actual outcome, or the very least, a better outcome - say contributing to the legal costs in the action against Rann to declare him a 'racist'. This in turn can generate its own publicity - free of charge!!

Also, I agree if we chose this path, surely mentioning that the AMHRC is taking legal action against the Premier might cause people to look twice.

Agreed Grotius, there are better ways, but this add was only 7k so it's better than nothing for now.... plus 7k for legal costs would not amount to much.