Gjorgje Ivanov

[Big Bad Sven]

I also forgot to mention about the so called "might" of the Yugoslav army. I always hear old codger talk it up saying it was like the 4th best army in europe at one stage lol.

For all those that love tito, remember this:

He gave up on the "greek-civil" war when Stalin stopped backing him, but was willing to take on the Italians in Trieste, leaving the troops in Trieste up until the 70's. He was willing to go to war with the west and Italy, without soviet help for his precious little Trieste - mainly because he was a croat/slovene.

When he turned his back on the soviets, he was willing to take them on even when the soviets had troops in hungary ready to attack.

He was willing to risk all this, but ignored the more easier and much attainable option of taking on a easier and weak greece. It would have been a cake walk if he continued to support the macedonians in Aegean macedonia.

This to me shows that macedonia and macedonians were not a priority for Tito.

[Onur]

Big Bad Sven gave some good examples about the adventures of Yugoslavia against Italians and as i said here several times before, Yugoslavia was an entity created after WW-1 by the agreement between western world and Russia. It`s allowed to be formed for the sole purpose of creating a barrier against Italian expansionism. Yugoslavia was just a temporary solution under Russian dominance and a temporary phase which allowed to be continue `till it serves it`s purpose. After the west defeated Italians in WW-2 and integrated them in the EU, the entity called Yugoslavia completed it`s purpose and entered to the downward spiral.

It`s formed against the will of the people. Serbians assassinated all the Croatian opinion leaders who opposed the idea of Yugoslavia and forced people to accept the Yugoslavian idea. It was created by the west and meant to be destroyed laters even in the first day of it and it`s been destroyed by the west again.

[FriendofMacedonia]

Near the very end of the war Tito made his intentions clear that Vardar Macedonia would be with Yugoslavia and the Aegean part would go with Greece. Amongst protests by the Macedonians some officers were executed and the border with Greece closed leaving the Macedonians in the Aegean part to fend for themselves against the Greeks, British and USA forces. The border with Greece remained closed well after the war during the 'Greek civil war' resulting in extrema casualties on the Macedonian side both militarily and civilly. Only when it looked like a humanitarian disaster was happening did he allow the border to be opened and refugees, mainly women and children, let in.

Tito was active in supporting the Macedonian units in the Aegean however.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=P-1m1FLtrvsC&pg=PA101&dq=tito+aegean+macedonia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0RBRT5PnFuzXiQLg7eW0Bg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tito%20aegean%20macedonia&f=false

The only reason he stopped supporting them was due to the Tito-Stalin split and teh fact the NOF decided to back Stalin instead of Tito. It was a political move that ended up consting them the support of Tito. Are you aware of the fact that prior to the Tito-Stalin split Bulgaria was supposed to enter Yugoslavia and Pirin Macedonia was actually supposed to be ceded to the Macedonian republic? If that ain't pro-Macedonian, I don't know what is. Of course, the union never happened as Stalin vetoed Bulgarian entry into Yugoslavia.

From the above we can see that Tito first lied to the Macedonian command to get them to join his forces. We can only speculate how things would have turned out for him fighting the Nazis, Bulgarians, Royalist Serbs and other separatist without the Macedonian help and especially if they also fought against him - maybe no Tito? Who knows.

I'd like to see some sources regarding Tito lying to the Macedonian people to get them to fight for him.

Further to the identity it was taught in schools that Macedonians were south Slavs like the other members of Yugoslavia.

Macedonians are South Slavs though. Its undeniable that you speak a South Slavic language and observe some Slavic customs. That doesn't negate the fact that you probably have Macedonian blood and customs (just as Serbo-Croats have much Illyro-Thracian blood/customs), but linguistically speaking, Macedonians are South Slavs undoubtedly.

Later he invested only heavy polluting industry like metal smelting, munitions production and coal fired electricity plant and heavily encourage far

Except Tito literally poured money into Kosvo and Macedonia (the poorest regions of Yugoslavia) in order to develop them. A lot of the industry you have today has a basis in Yugoslav times. Of course, I'm of the opinion that governments tend to be fiscally irresponsible with economic matters which is why Macedonia didn't see the level of development it needed to, but nevertheless, improvements were made.

Aside from combined military security, what benefits did Yugoslavia provide that the subsequent bilateral agreements between its former states currently don't?

It allowed our collective states to actually have a voice on the European/Global scale and have some real influence over the way we conduct our business. If Yugoslavia was still alive and kicking by the 1990's, there is aboslutely no way in hell the West would risk intervention in Kosovo and Macedonia. We wouldn't have lost territory, you wouldn't have had to have a government literally held hostage by a minoirty ethnic group. In other words, we were far more independent under Yugoslavia than we are now. Serbia and Macedonia are independent states on paper, in reality, we have very little sway over our destiny. That wasn't always the case with Yugoslavia.

To be honest, I find it rather annoying when people claim that Tito "gave" Macedonians a republic, as if the Macedonians had no significant part in the process. If you want to see another angle of Tito's attitude towards Macedonians, I suggest you read up on the conflict in Greece and Greek-occupied Macedonia that continued on from WWII until 1949.

I didn't mean it like that. I know that the Macedonians contributed greatly to the Partisan war effort and that they spilled their blood to drive the agressors out like all of the other Yugoslav nations. I just meant that it was under Tito's rule that establish the first autonomy Macedonia had and I think that deserves some credit.

It`s formed against the will of the people. Serbians assassinated all the Croatian opinion leaders who opposed the idea of Yugoslavia and forced people to accept the Yugoslavian idea. It was created by the west and meant to be destroyed laters even in the first day of it and it`s been destroyed by the west again.

Not true. The Yugoslav movement actually started in Croatia and had majority support among the Croatian people.

Where the Serbs and Croats differed was not in whether Yugoslavia should be established, but rather how it should be governed. The Croats/Slovenes wanted decentalized democracy, Serbs wanted a unitary monarchy. That is the fundamental basis of the quarell.

Macedonia was nothing more then the "wheat basket" of yugoslavia, always the last in line to get anything, the cheap labor, from infrastructure and industrialization, to basic stuff like education and sports facilities. There ia a reason why the other former Yugoslav countries were doing better then macedonia for almost 20 years. Now that the playing field is even we can see macedonians getting better and even passing these other countries.

Who are you passing? Im sorry mate but if there is anything our countries can't brag about, its the economy. Macedonia has a 31% unemployment rate. And its been 20 years.

[Brian]

Finally the politicians in RoM are waking up to the 'facts of life' with the USA - NATO makes noises of no entry for Macedonia even though the court they created, the ICJ, says Macedonia should be allowed in thus showing that NATO doesn't respect the Law but does what they pleases, and yet as soon as Macedonia says 'good-by then' the USA says 'wait a minute, maybe..'. Ahh, the USA, the friend you hate to have.

Now if the RoM politicians did this earlier maybe they would have been in NATO and the EU years ago (although not that I think it's such a good idea anyway).

Milososki: Macedonia should Withdraw Troops from Afghanistan

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20562/1/

Monday, 12 March 2012
This was announced today by Antonio Milososki, former Minister of Foreign Affairs and current President of the Commission for Foreign Affairs.

The 'military presence' in Afghanistan must be brought down and minimalized to experts who would provide training to Afghani soldiers and not full military force who engages the enemy which is the current format, says Milososki.

The former foreign minister is not alone and his sentiment is shared by many, especialy after NATO recently announced it will not respect the judgment by the ICJ.

Political expert Jovan Donev for years has been asking the Macedonian Government to withdraw its soldiers from Afgahnistan.

"It's highly likely Macedonia will stay out of NATO after the May summit, therefore I see absolutely no reason for us to continue our participation in this organization at a time even when NATO members refuse to participate in peacekeeping or war operations. When NATO decides there is no reason for them to respect international law and the Court they themselves established in terms of the ICJ ruling, what is Macedonia doing with NATO? We must immediately bring our troops home" says Donev.

Donev isn't alone. Numerous University proffessors lead by Prof. Venkovska have asked the Government to bring the troops home and have voiced their stance that Macedonia should be ashamed for taking a part in an illegal and immoral war waged by NATO both in Iraq and Afghanistan where hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed. Prof. Venkovska has also stated multiple war crimes and crimes against humanity have been committed by the Western military Alliance.

The Macedonian President Gjorgje Ivanov few months ago stated the country will remain in Afghanistan supporting the NATO effort and transitional process until Afghanistan is able to stand on its two feet, adding as long as the process and transition is in agreement with Macedonia's interests.

Macedonia has been participating in NATO since 2002, and has so far rotated 2,500 soldiers. Currently there are 168 Mak soldiers in Afghanistan.

NATO's presence in the far east Asian country has turned into a nightmare, particularly after multiple drone attacks went wrong and yesterdays horrific killings when US soldier massacred 16 civilians.

NATO's involvement in Afghanistan not just that has not improved the situation for civilians and the country, rather has complicated it and made it more dangerous.

According to insiders, Macedonia could abruptly end its NATO engagement after the upcoming Summit.

U.S. senator seeking admission of Macedonia to NATO

http://www.makfax.com.mk/#2%2F279187%2Famerikanski_senator_bara_priem_na_makedonija_vo_nato

12 March 2012
U.S. Senator Dick Lugar bill through calls for further NATO enlargement and deepening of strategic partnership with U.S. allies in the alliance.

Lugar requires the U.S. to push for admission of Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro and Georgia into the alliance before the May summit in Chicago to set a clear perspective for the countries for admission to the alliance.

"NATO enlargement represents a key element for strengthening the stability and political reforms in emerging democracies in Central and Eastern Europe and the Balkans," said Lugar.

"The outlook for NATO membership will not only improve regional security, but also helps in transforming countries close economic partners in terms of U.S. national security," Lugar said in a written statement posted on its website.

[Brian]

Tito was active in supporting the Macedonian units in the Aegean however.

Yeah, that's why he ordered them to the battle of Srem. Look it up some time. It diverted Macedonian units from helping the Macedonians in the Aegean and Pirin regions and led to the fall-down of a unified Macedonia. It's common knowledge and family lore in many Macedonian families. Maybe they don't teach that in Serbia.

Here's a quick thing I found.
"The Battle of Srem: Sixty Years On"
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles...unov_srem.html

http://books.google.ca/books?id=P-1m1FLtrvsC&pg=PA101&dq=tito+aegean+macedonia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0RBRT5PnFuzXiQLg7eW0Bg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tito%20aegean%20macedonia&f=false

The only reason he stopped supporting them was due to the Tito-Stalin split and teh fact the NOF decided to back Stalin instead of Tito. It was a political move that ended up consting them the support of Tito. Are you aware of the fact that prior to the Tito-Stalin split Bulgaria was supposed to enter Yugoslavia and Pirin Macedonia was actually supposed to be ceded to the Macedonian republic? If that ain't pro-Macedonian, I don't know what is. Of course, the union never happened as Stalin vetoed Bulgarian entry into Yugoslavia.

Let them 'take care of business' in the Aegean an Pirin.

Tito had a deal with the West to give him weapons and supplies for sacrificing Macedonia and when this was found out the Macedonians thought to turn to Stalin if need be - horse before the cart 'history' in Yugoslavia.


I'd like to see some sources regarding Tito lying to the Macedonian people to get them to fight for him.

Lying/went back on his word, same difference. Macedonians saw the war as there chance to unify Macedonia first with the option of joining Yugoslavia as a whole. Tito had other plans.



Macedonians are South Slavs though. Its undeniable that you speak a South Slavic language and observe some Slavic customs. That doesn't negate the fact that you probably have Macedonian blood and customs (just as Serbo-Croats have much Illyro-Thracian blood/customs), but linguistically speaking, Macedonians are South Slavs undoubtedly.

The 'North to South Migration' was what was taught in Yugoslav schools. Very true for the Serbs, but although there is Slavic blood in the Macedonian they are also the indigenous population and not some 'recent' imports as Greece and Yugoslavia liked to play-off.



Except Tito literally poured money into Kosvo and Macedonia (the poorest regions of Yugoslavia) in order to develop them. A lot of the industry you have today has a basis in Yugoslav times. Of course, I'm of the opinion that governments tend to be fiscally irresponsible with economic matters which is why Macedonia didn't see the level of development it needed to, but nevertheless, improvements were made.

There had to be some development there otherwise it becomes to obvious but all the other republics enjoyed a higher standard of living than Macedonia through deliberate intent. It made great sense for Tito, keep them poor and largely into farming so they'll leave and send hard currency back to their relatives via Yugo-Bank.



It allowed our collective states to actually have a voice on the European/Global scale and have some real influence over the way we conduct our business. If Yugoslavia was still alive and kicking by the 1990's, there is aboslutely no way in hell the West would risk intervention in Kosovo and Macedonia. We wouldn't have lost territory, you wouldn't have had to have a government literally held hostage by a minoirty ethnic group. In other words, we were far more independent under Yugoslavia than we are now. Serbia and Macedonia are independent states on paper, in reality, we have very little sway over our destiny. That wasn't always the case with Yugoslavia.

The West broke-up Yugoslavia to take advantage of them but it was one form of oppression replacing another. Macedonia should have been prepared for the inevitable '2001'. Traitors then and traitors now, same old song screwing Macedonia.




Who are you passing? Im sorry mate but if there is anything our countries can't brag about, its the economy. Macedonia has a 31% unemployment rate. And its been 20 years.

On paper they'll make it even greater than 31% if need be. I prefer the 'dumb-rule-of-thumb' - watch what kind of cars people drive, the sorts of holidays they take, ect. It's not hard evidence with figure but it gives you a pretty good 'sense' of the situation. Too much goes 'under the table'.

[George S.]

if we let them the'll ride roughshod over us.We need to act as early as possible as slowly they are taking over. that's if don't do anything .We are just doing what the serbs did nothing.

[Brian]

Is this the sort of things NATO does? How will they support the Albanians in RoM?

Germany admits Lies led to NATO Bombing of Serbia

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20465/46/

29 February 2012
Belgrade-based Blic newspaper writes that ahead of the start of the war, German Defense Minister Scharping falsely presented members of the ethnic Albanian KLA "rebels" as - civilian victims.

The Serbian authorities considered the KLA to be a terrorist group whose funding came from heroin and cocain trafficking.

Scharping was accused by former German police official Henning Hensch, an OSCE observer in Kosovo before the war, who spoke for Germany's NDR television.

This OSCE observer was personally present during the investigation of the scene in Rugovo in Kosovo in January 1999, where Serbian police units fought against KLA members.

The German television program featuring an interview with Hensch also showed Scharping in a news conference in early 1999, where he presented photographs from Rugovo of KLA members killed in battle, claiming they depicted massacred civilians.

Furthermore, the German minister told reporters that the OSCE photos of the scene were made "secretly by a German officer", and that he would have "gladly presented him (to reporters)", but that the officer is question was "receiving medical treatment because of the traumatic experiences" that he underwent in Kosovo.

13 years later, NDR journalists asked the German Defense Ministry to confirm that "a German officer" was in the area at the time secretly taking photoraphs, to after several weeks receive a reply that this was not the case.

Scharping himself, said the television, could not be reached for comment.

NATO's aerial war lasted for 78 days in the spring of 1999, and ended with the signing of the Kumanovo Agreement, and the adoption of Resolution 1244 at the UN Security Council.

[Risto the Great]

Germany admits Lies led to NATO Bombing of Serbia

Macedonia will (again) receive a similar treatment and the lessons should have been learned last time. The lobbying machine needs to get moving!

[Zarni]

Ivanov - We will send in Special Ops and

Special Police if Thugs don't stop attacking civilians, regular Police and vandalising Property

Good to see, I heard this on Macedonian SBA Radio I hope the ethnic Albanians are not awarded leniency because as we know they are the overwhelming majority committing crime

Macedonian Law must be uphold he said

[lavce pelagonski]

We shall see

[George S.]

law & order has to prevail.

[Zarni]

The Serbian authorities considered the KLA to be a terrorist group whose funding came from heroin and cocain trafficking.

On the eve just before that whore Albright shock hands with Thaci an Interpol warrant was due to be realised to arrest that Criminal and Terrorist.

Whilst the KLA were a US listed Terrorist Organisation that changed as it too changed when the NLA were no loner Thugs and Murders as the NATO embarrassed Robertson once said but partners to the West.

Never forget it it people

[George S.]

Zarni you are spot on never forget it & to know who your real friends not just the ones who stab you in the back.We have to make sure next time the albaians start they don't get the support they did last time.

[Volk]

link?

[Daskalot]

Are the special forces made up of the same people training the Iraqi military/police? If so they are hardcore.