Gjorgje Ivanov

[George S.]

Idon't think nato either needs us or theywant us out of the way.One would think how can your name stop you from joining nato>>

[Risto the Great]

No, Im Greek phile.

I don't get it, aren't you guys Macedonian or something?

[Soldier of Macedon]

We're nothing but a collection of shitty states that have no choice but to reduce ourselves to vassalage just to survive. At least with Yugoslavia we could actually make our decisions (for the most part).

Aside from combined military security, what benefits did Yugoslavia provide that the subsequent bilateral agreements between its former states currently don't?

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not), Tito was very supportive of the Macedonian people and helped the Macedonian culture flourish by giving them a republic, an official language status etc. etc.

To be honest, I find it rather annoying when people claim that Tito "gave" Macedonians a republic, as if the Macedonians had no significant part in the process. If you want to see another angle of Tito's attitude towards Macedonians, I suggest you read up on the conflict in Greece and Greek-occupied Macedonia that continued on from WWII until 1949.

[Phoenix]

I don't get it, aren't you guys Macedonian or something?

...lol

Isn't the Vol, the perfect candidate for the identity of 'Macedonian', considering his Asia Minor roots...?

[Zarni]

Idon't think nato either needs us or theywant us out of the way

Agree you are correct

[Voltron]

lol the only reason I thought you were Aegean Macedonian is because you mentioned "here in Greece" so I assumed you were from Egej.

Well, to be honest if we start analysing the terminology it can get messy. Aside from Risto and Phoenix busting my chops, I maintain the traditional Greek view on Macedonia while at the same time accepting that there are individuals today that identify themselves as such. So I take no exception.

Im a Hybrid

[Soldier of Macedon]

Most of us here maintain a Macedonian view about Greece and its true history and composition, while at the same time accepting that there are individuals today that identify themselves as Greeks

[Voltron]

Thats the deal SOM.
There is always room for finding middle ground.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Both realistically and politically, our identity, ethnicity and language is Macedonian, and yours is Greek. Greece needs to recognise this fact and move on, because we will never change who we are. That is the bottom line if we are ever to achieve normal relations as neighbouring states.

The middle ground is people like yourself and I having a civilised and logical conversation about matters pertaining to the history of both our regions and peoples. You don't need to share all of my opinions, but you will respect the identity of the Macedonian people. That is all I require, and it is not too much to ask for. Greeks would expect no less on a forum of their own, and indeed in everyday life.

[Risto the Great]

Im a Hybrid

Mongrel is another way of looking at it.
But I think you are Greek.

[Voltron]

Both realistically and politically, our identity, ethnicity and language is Macedonian, and yours is Greek. Greece needs to recognise this fact and move on, because we will never change who we are. That is the bottom line if we are ever to achieve normal relations as neighbouring states.

As long as both countries focus on the present and future then im sure its possible. Historical matters is a different story and I dont think that will ever happen.

The middle ground is people like yourself and I having a civilised and logical conversation about matters pertaining to the history of both our regions and peoples. You don't need to share all of my opinions, but you will respect the identity of the Macedonian people. That is all I require, and it is not too much to ask for. Greeks would expect no less on a forum of their own, and indeed in everyday life.

Agreed.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Historical matters is a different story and I dont think that will ever happen.

I wouldn't expect a complete u-turn in the current Greek view concerning Macedonia, but there at least needs to be some sort of revision to accept and recognise the existence of a non-Greek people in modern Greece who identify their ethnicity, culture and language as Macedonian. As for overall history, it is unfortunate that none of the Balkan peoples can come to a fair consensus, and it doesn't look like we ever will.

[Big Bad Sven]

Macedonia cannot do anything more than posture and wink at the east.
Geographically it's in Europe and surrounded by NATO and EU members...

The if it turned to Russia the west has its albanian foot soldiers that they will support again against Macedonia. So Macedonia turns into another geopolitical flashpoint. Cannot see how this would help our nation at this time, perhaps when NATO and EU collapse..

Maybe so, but i was thinking, and perhaps it maybe a extreme view - but what about the possibility of a russian base in macedonia?

Syria has a russian base and so far it appears the west cannot attack Syria directly. Iran who is a close ally to Russia and China is also looking pretty safe from western attacks. Both countries are surrounded by NATO/Pro-US countries and even "old enemies".
I would imagine once the Chinese port in Pakistan is built, Pakistan will no longer be a slave to the west and be able to dictate terms on her conditions.

I guess the draw back of this would be macedonia would be isolated from most of europe, but in a way it already is so how bad can it really be if a russian milatary base would be in macedonia?

[Big Bad Sven]

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not), Tito was very supportive of the Macedonian people and helped the Macedonian culture flourish by giving them a republic, an official language status etc. etc. Was this not this first time Macedonians had gained such initiative? Was it not under Tito that Macedonia gained her first taste of autonomy?

And how the hell is what others call you outside of Yugoslavia relevant at all? What does Yugoslavia have to do with that? The Yugoslavian government fully recognized the Macedonian name and people.

Well, life was not so great to macedonians in Tito's yugoslavia in reality, especially in the period up until the mid 60's.

Macedonians lost a lot of good men during the early days of Tito's Yugoslaiva - the biggest example is Cento. Sent to the Yugoslavian jails for being more macedonian then"yugoslav".

Because of Tito macedonians have forever lost the chance of getting Aegean, pirin and parts in albania. We macedonians lost a lot of good innocent people when Tito closed the borders.

Oh btw, tito gave macedonian land to kosovo and serbia. He gave to serbia one of our most important sites prohor pcinjski

The fact that Tito and his commies gave a half arsed effort in the construction of of skopje after the earthquake is another one of tito's "legacy" in macedonia.

He was very lenient and supportive of the shiptars in macedonia. Funny that Tito was strong in assimilating the germans and italians in other parts of yugoslavia yet the shiptars were well respected and looked after tito.

Macedonia was nothing more then the "wheat basket" of yugoslavia, always the last in line to get anything, the cheap labor, from infrastructure and industrialization, to basic stuff like education and sports facilities. There ia a reason why the other former Yugoslav countries were doing better then macedonia for almost 20 years. Now that the playing field is even we can see macedonians getting better and even passing these other countries.

And finally, from talking to my father and other familiy members that are older. In tito's yugoslavia they learnt about "heroes" such as Tito, stalin, Lenin, marx etc. Goce Delcev and other modern macedonian heroes were briefly examined, and Alexander the Great was completely left out.

So in conclusion, i think in the short term like the sensation seventies and electrifying 80's yugoslavia was good for macedonia when every one was dancing to turbo-folk and had "jobs for life", but in the long run, tito and yugoslavia was horrible for macedonia.

[Voltron]

I wouldn't expect a complete u-turn in the current Greek view concerning Macedonia, but there at least needs to be some sort of revision to accept and recognise the existence of a non-Greek people in modern Greece

Which would imply the existance of a non-Greek people in Ancient Greece. There is no way to seperate the two instances of modern and ancient since the name of the non-Greek people you claim has the same name. Its nothing more than accepting a schizophrenic solution to a problem.

I can expect to see a softening up by both sides as soon as we find a common threat. To me that is Islamic expansion in the Balkans and this is something we can maybe utilize to find common ground.