Gjorgje Ivanov

[Brian]

You guys had it all along. It was called Yugoslavia, but you along with the rest of the Ex-Yugo countries decided to split off what could of been a superpower in Europe for the sake of petty nationalistic tendencies. One of the biggest blunders of modern times, nobody fucked with Yugoslavia. Everybody was in check.

Now your asking for Chinese and Russian bases. Unbelievable...

They do say that when things go to the crapper people start to reminisce more about the good times in the past. Yes, wasn't it great when Tito's tyranny kept those pesky Macedonians in check - less for the Greeks to do, more time to do Greek thing like lazes about, and more money to spend on Ouzo and buying weapons to defend yourselves from the Turkish boogeyman, and and playing sleep-overs visiting each other with your bum-chum friends the Serbs. Yeah, good times, Voltron, bring back Yugoslavia and when you all had pay packets...mmm...reminiscing is so much fun. "Quiet stomach, I told you we're on a diet! Don't you know obesity is a global problem?"

I know!...Chinese and Russians???...Pleeeeeese! They wouldn't have that familiar smell or feel when they snuggle up to you, duh!

[Volk]

Macedonia cannot do anything more than posture and wink at the east.
Geographically it's in Europe and surrounded by NATO and EU members...

The if it turned to Russia the west has its albanian foot soldiers that they will support again against Macedonia. So Macedonia turns into another geopolitical flashpoint. Cannot see how this would help our nation at this time, perhaps when NATO and EU collapse..

[Bill77]

They do say that when things go to the crapper people start to reminisce more about the good times in the past. Yes, wasn't it great when Tito's tyranny kept those pesky Macedonians in check - less for the Greeks to do, more time to do Greek thing like lazes about, and more money to spend on Ouzo and buying weapons to defend yourselves from the Turkish boogeyman, and and playing sleep-overs visiting each other with your bum-chum friends the Serbs. Yeah, good times, Voltron, bring back Yugoslavia and when you all had pay packets...mmm...reminiscing is so much fun.

These morons have such a hard on with the thought of Yugoslavia, that they still have "YUGOSLAVIA" street signs at intersections in Lerin, especially when you get closer to the Gjevgelia Border crossing. Bloody cave men.

[Voltron]

They do say that when things go to the crapper people start to reminisce more about the good times in the past. Yes, wasn't it great when Tito's tyranny kept those pesky Macedonians in check - less for the Greeks to do, more time to do Greek thing like lazes about, and more money to spend on Ouzo and buying weapons to defend yourselves from the Turkish boogeyman, and and playing sleep-overs visiting each other with your bum-chum friends the Serbs. Yeah, good times, Voltron, bring back Yugoslavia and when you all had pay packets...mmm...reminiscing is so much fun. "Quiet stomach, I told you we're on a diet! Don't you know obesity is a global problem?"

I know!...Chinese and Russians???...Pleeeeeese! They wouldn't have that familiar smell or feel when they snuggle up to you, duh!

I dont know the details of the issues faced at the time. What I do know is that it was a force to reckon with in the Balkans with a million man army to deploy if things got rough. I dont think the Albanians would of even give it a passing thought of doing something stupid over there.

[Brian]

Macedonia cannot do anything more than posture and wink at the east.
Geographically it's in Europe and surrounded by NATO and EU members...

The if it turned to Russia the west has its albanian foot soldiers that they will support again against Macedonia. So Macedonia turns into another geopolitical flashpoint. Cannot see how this would help our nation at this time, perhaps when NATO and EU collapse..

Eradicate the rat problem that should have been done in 2001 - if you think about it you know your going to have a very short time before the West jumps in to stop things so don't waste your time gradually incrementing things with the police first - bomb the crap out of everything and call the Russians in at the same time, problem solved. To combat any accusations of genocide and International Court cases film your raids and use 'drop weapons' where needed, the USA does. A lot of stuff has ways to be done. You don't piss fart with war. It reminds me of someone telling me why police don't shoot to wound like in the movies - because you don't piss fart with a gun, if you had reason enough to pull it out then be prepared to shoot to kill. Likewise if an armed insurgence happens you don't involve the police and go incremental into a war - they're out to kill, so you don't even think about arrest or capture and hit them with everything you have from the get-go and dead is the preferred solution. The Mormon leader forgot you can't bargain with the devil's minions - human nature, people like you out of respect or fear or need and the Albanians have never respected us.

[Brian]

Was your identity threatened back then ? Socialist Republic of Macedonia was that not how it was called ? I dont know the details of the issues faced at the time. What I do know is that it was a force to reckon with in the Balkans with a million man army to deploy if Im not mistaken. I dont think the Albanians would of even give it a passing thought of doing something stupid over there.

Yes, you are right, it was called the Socialist Republic of Macedonia and our identity as Macedonians was guaranteed by the constitution - internally. Externally nobody officially called us Macedonians, just Yugoslavs/Slav Macedonians or idiot wannabe Macedonians (kind of like an Irish joke) - kind of like the one time Greek suggestion for the name dispute, internally you can be Macedonians (keep sucking your thumbs if it pacifies you) wile externally you can be New/North/Vardar or any stupid thing you want to call yourselves except Macedonians. Still reminiscing of the old good times I see.LOL.

[Voltron]

I know it was a redundant question thats why I went back and edited to go to the substance of the point. In any case, they werent pussies back then. I guess thats what I was trying to get at.

[George S.]

as long as you don't rock the status quo you can call yourself a country with no name.

[Brian]

I know it was a redundant question thats why I went back and edited to go to the substance of the point. In any case, they werent pussies back then. I guess thats what I was trying to get at.

They weren't hysterical pussies about being seen to do 'right' in the West's eyes, usually by over reacting a giving much more than is reasonable. In Tito's day you could be 'disappeared' at 3 in the morning. Tyranny, but at least it kept the rats in check. One of his many stupidities was thinking he could make Yugoslavs of them - you gotta read people.

[FriendofMacedonia]

Let's be real, Yugoslavia had a lot of problems, but it was FAR better than the piss poor situation we have today. We're nothing but a collection of shitty states that have no choice but to reduce ourselves to vassalage just to survive. At least with Yugoslavia we could actually make our decisions (for the most part).

I would argue that Macedonia was FAR MORE independent in Tito's Yugoslavia than it is today. Under Yugoslavia, Macedonia had a high degree of autonomy in a country that was relevant on the political scene. Macedonia isn't independent now (or any of the ex-Yugo states for that matter).

I mean for Christ's sake, you recognized Kosovo just because your government got hijacked by an Albanian minority even though the majority of Macedonians probably don't support the decsion. And you call THAT independence? Hell naw.

Even with all of its many many problems,
Yugoslavia>>>>>>>petty quisling Balkan states that can't amount to anything

Yes, you are right, it was called the Socialist Republic of Macedonia and our identity as Macedonians was guaranteed by the constitution - internally. Externally nobody officially called us Macedonians, just Yugoslavs/Slav Macedonians or idiot wannabe Macedonians (kind of like an Irish joke) - kind of like the one time Greek suggestion for the name dispute, internally you can be Macedonians (keep sucking your thumbs if it pacifies you) wile externally you can be New/North/Vardar or any stupid thing you want to call yourselves except Macedonians. Still reminiscing of the old good times I see.LOL.

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not), Tito was very supportive of the Macedonian people and helped the Macedonian culture flourish by giving them a republic, an official language status etc. etc. Was this not this first time Macedonians had gained such initiative? Was it not under Tito that Macedonia gained her first taste of autonomy?

And how the hell is what others call you outside of Yugoslavia relevant at all? What does Yugoslavia have to do with that? The Yugoslavian government fully recognized the Macedonian name and people.

[Voltron]

Agreed FOM, and that was the reason why the west had to bring it down. Divide and Conquer and then have them join NATO.
I dont know what the comments are in the youtube video but there are a lot of thumbs up. Hell some of their roadwork look better in the eighties than they do here in Greece today.

YUGOSLAVIA - CBS Documentary, 1986

YUGOSLAVIA - CBS Documentary, 1986 - YouTube

[FriendofMacedonia]

Agreed FOM, and that was the reason why the west had to bring it down. Divide and Conquer and then have them join NATO.
I dont know what the comments are in the youtube video but there are a lot of thumbs up. Hell some of their roadwork look better in the eighties than they do here in Greece today.

YUGOSLAVIA - CBS Documentary, 1986

YUGOSLAVIA - CBS Documentary, 1986 - YouTube

Its sad that our peoples are that short sighted and easily tricked. We have to stop wearing our hearts on our sleeves and think rationally about the best way to go about things. Its sad because back in the day, when Yugoslavia was still alive and kicked we showed both the Warsaw Pact and NATO the middle finger and maintained our neutrality. Now, we have no choice but to suck up to the bigger powers.

Im assuming you're Aegean Macedonian?

[Voltron]

Its sad that our peoples are that short sighted and easily tricked. We have to stop wearing our hearts on our sleeves and think rationally about the best way to go about things. Its sad because back in the day, when Yugoslavia was still alive and kicked we showed both the Warsaw Pact and NATO the middle finger and maintained our neutrality. Now, we have no choice but to suck up to the bigger powers.

Im assuming you're Aegean Macedonian?

No, Im Greek phile. You may have just caused a few people to choke on their morning coffee by saying that. lol.

[FriendofMacedonia]

No, Im Greek phile. You may have just caused a few people to choke on their morning coffee by saying that. lol.

lol the only reason I thought you were Aegean Macedonian is because you mentioned "here in Greece" so I assumed you were from Egej.

[Brian]

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not), Tito was very supportive of the Macedonian people and helped the Macedonian culture flourish by giving them a republic, an official language status etc. etc. Was this not this first time Macedonians had gained such initiative? Was it not under Tito that Macedonia gained her first taste of autonomy?

And how the hell is what others call you outside of Yugoslavia relevant at all? What does Yugoslavia have to do with that? The Yugoslavian government fully recognized the Macedonian name and people.

You've put my quote only a little out of context, it was more directed at the Greeks while acknowledging that Tito did create a Macedonian state, allow them to identify as Macedonians (but in his limited definition, more on that later) and gave Macedonian official language status and allowed the culture to flourish in a sort of autonomous way. Thus far you are "not mistaken".

In politics rarely things are what they appear to be - Tito did all the above nice things, right?.

Let's look at the picture more closely and we can find reason not to glorify Tito.

From the beginning (Voltron's going to love this ie "we always said Macedonia began in WW2") some Macedonians joined Tito's partizans while overwhelmingly most Macedonians who were in the resistance were in Macedonian units with their own command spanning both sides of the Greek border. It was Tito who convinced them to join forces and fight together against the powerful Nazi forces. It turned out to be one of those 'seemed like a good idea at the time moments'.

The desire of the Macedonians always was (and still is with most Macedonians, but you wouldn't know it with our current crop of politicians) to unite Macedonia. WW2 presented an opportunity to do this but facing strong enemies all around (ie Nazis, Bulgarians, Greeks and Albanians) it looked like a good idea to the command to accept Tito's proposition and join forces. This was done WITH the understanding that when the Nazis were defeated the Macedonians would go their own way and Tito can go build his Yugoslavia.

Near the very end of the war Tito made his intentions clear that Vardar Macedonia would be with Yugoslavia and the Aegean part would go with Greece. Amongst protests by the Macedonians some officers were executed and the border with Greece closed leaving the Macedonians in the Aegean part to fend for themselves against the Greeks, British and USA forces. The border with Greece remained closed well after the war during the 'Greek civil war' resulting in extrema casualties on the Macedonian side both militarily and civilly. Only when it looked like a humanitarian disaster was happening did he allow the border to be opened and refugees, mainly women and children, let in.

From the above we can see that Tito first lied to the Macedonian command to get them to join his forces. We can only speculate how things would have turned out for him fighting the Nazis, Bulgarians, Royalist Serbs and other separatist without the Macedonian help and especially if they also fought against him - maybe no Tito? Who knows.

He further betrayed the Macedonians in a private deal with the West to air-drop him supplies, weapons and munition to fight his enemies and be the dominant power by agreeing to split the Macedonians and leave the Aegean Macedonias to be exterminated. Not such a 'friend of the Macedonians' afterall.

Later he invested only heavy polluting industry like metal smelting, munitions production and coal fired electricity plant and heavily encourage farming (because you're really good at it) while produce was purchased by Yugoslav state firms for one price and sold externally for a nice profit. Couldn't the Macedonians do it themselves

By not encouraging much industry in Macedonia he created the desire in the Macedonians to emigrate to the West. Once there the diaspora sent tons of hard foreign currency to their relatives back in Macedonia all funnelled through Yugo Bank in Belgrade even if you sent the money to an account in Stopanska Banka. A nice little earner of an idea for hard currency. Later when the diaspora wanted to visit their relatives all flights were first to Belgrade so that landing fees would go there even though a huge portion of the diaspora wanted to get to Macedonia. In the past some Macedonians who made a trip back would be carrying envelopes of cash not only intended for their own relatives but also those relatives of close friends in the West so their relatives could keep hard cash as a hedge against price rises and a 'rainy day'.

Further to the identity it was taught in schools that Macedonians were south Slavs like the other members of Yugoslavia.

So let's acknowledge the some good that Tito did but let's not get carried away and call him a TRUE friend of the Macedonians - history begs to differ.