Gjorgje Ivanov

[Jankovska]

Macedonia has nothing to gain from Europe or NATO or any of those org that will break in few years time. The price Macedonia will pay is the bitter people will split again, people who think that the EU will bring them something and nationalisam is bad to go with. It's good what they did, it's good that we are sharp, but Macedonia is economicly very weak, these people think EU will save them. Pushing the nationalisam stronger will only weaken the Macedonia as the people will not be united. Don't forget that a large amount still believe that Macedonia's only way forward is in Europe and you have Branko and Co to declare that the strong nationalisam is keeping us where we are. We know that is not true but we don't live in Macedonia. We have played this game for a long time. The recession and everything will hit Macedonia hard, the goverment has doubled taxes in no time, fines over the poor people, trust me it's a base for wanting Europe. I am not saying Ivanov shouldn't have said that, sure he should, ama while doing that neka si ja gleda i kukata. Macedonians have lost faith in many parties, if they divide one more it's going to be a disaster. We had split people for 15 years not sure who to believe, we finally got majority together now they need to keep it that way. Going back to SDSM is going to ruin us.

[ZAS]

Seriously, the Greeks have no choice in this matter.
They will rant and rave for as long as possible because they know the Macedonian wound is still raw. The MTO is committed to keeping it that way.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the MTO.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Macedonian Truth Organisation, the place you are writing.

ZAS, I am disappointed you avoided my questions in the thread you disappeared from not long ago. Can you please address there, or should I reside in the fact that you are one of those people that makes statements that he refuses to (or can't) corroborate?

Just in case you forgot:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=22126#post22126

[Soldier of Macedon]

There has to be a balance, but remaining nationally minded and patriotic is essential. That is, after all, what we are fighting for, remaining Macedonian.

[ZAS]

Macedonian Truth Organisation, the place you are writing.

ZAS, I am disappointed you avoided my questions in the thread you disappeared from not long ago. Can you please address there, or should I reside in the fact that you are one of those people that makes statements that he refuses to (or can't) corroborate?

Just in case you forgot:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...2126#post22126

No I have not forgotten, but i thought that Rogi might have told you about those people, I do not tell names, these people are dangerous, and well organized, perhaps we will meet soon and i will tell you about these People then, till then ask Rogi and please get off my back.

[Jankovska]

There has to be a balance, but remaining nationally minded and patriotic is essential. That is, after all, what we are fighting for, remaining Macedonian.

Agreed. I think he should stay the way he is but at the same the goverment must concentrate on the people that voted for them, something I am not hearing lately. Branko is back in opposition and that can never be good. Grujo and Ivanov should not give him a chance to turn people against them. That;s what I am scared off.
He was in opposition in 2001 and we had war.

[Rogi]

You don't tell names, but I'm supposed to name drop about things that took place when I was a toddler? I could only guess, I'm sure I'd guess quite a few right too, but it would still be a guess.

I realise that despite how much I may know, how much I have heard and been told, I still know very little about the details of those involved in the community 15+ years ago who's views were opposite to those of my family and the pro-Macedonia / pro-Independence circles. Perhaps because I didn't "live it", so to speak.

Though, I do have a whole archive regarding all of this, gathered by my father. Perhaps when he finally decides to write the book that I've been lobbying him to write, I might learn the real details of the insides of our community.

I know others who held the pro-Macedonian position 20 years ago are now beginning to put together their memoirs and preparing chapters on the insides of our community in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's and that will be very eye-opening for many.

I think everyone is starting to understand that Chinese proverb, "The palest ink is better than the best memory".

[Soldier of Macedon]

No I have not forgotten, but i thought that Rogi might have told you about those people, I do not tell names, these people are dangerous, and well organized, perhaps we will meet soon and i will tell you about these People then, till then ask Rogi and please get off my back.

Nah, not yet. You made reference to 'srbomani' on this forum, please identify the persons and comments that make you suggest this, and enough with the charade. Or, you could stop spreading uncorroborated garbage, your choice.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I share your concern, that man has been a curse in Macedonia since his involvement in politics, and I am sure even before that. Those that have voted for him did so because of 'historical allegiances' and because there was no one better. Surely most of the people that vote for SDS can see that the guy is a fumbling alcoholic and a scamming idiot, or not? Surely not everybody that votes for SDS would agree to a name change?

[Jankovska]

Yes but he is good at making people think the EU is their only saviour. Soon he will be preaching how the nationalisam has pushed us further away, how the work he has done for 15 years they destroyed blah blah. The goverment must start looking after the people, not using them. If the Macedonians divide on the name issue we are screwed.

[Pelister]

Could someone explain the math behind this statement of Ivanov, I do not get it.

The 39%, 100% and 51% are all fine, but the 5%, what does he refer to with that figure?

It probably refers to the "residue" of our glorious and rich culture, which the New Greeks have very selectively appropriated. The bits the New Greeks are stealing or have stolen.

Alternatively, it could mean that only about 5% of Macedonia had been inhabited by Greeks.

[Pelister]

I hope he is not using the people.

He is using pretty strong language, and making it clear we want our rights respected.

This is a good sign, and if he keeps this strategy going we will see where institutions and countries "really" stand. In this way we will finally find out which countries/instituties actually believe in liberty, rights, self determination, and who are the rotten hypocrits in this world.

[Pelister]

Macedonia has nothing to gain from Europe or NATO or any of those org that will break in few years time. The price Macedonia will pay is the bitter people will split again, people who think that the EU will bring them something and nationalisam is bad to go with. It's good what they did, it's good that we are sharp, but Macedonia is economicly very weak, these people think EU will save them. Pushing the nationalisam stronger will only weaken the Macedonia as the people will not be united. Don't forget that a large amount still believe that Macedonia's only way forward is in Europe and you have Branko and Co to declare that the strong nationalisam is keeping us where we are. We know that is not true but we don't live in Macedonia. We have played this game for a long time. The recession and everything will hit Macedonia hard, the goverment has doubled taxes in no time, fines over the poor people, trust me it's a base for wanting Europe. I am not saying Ivanov shouldn't have said that, sure he should, ama while doing that neka si ja gleda i kukata. Macedonians have lost faith in many parties, if they divide one more it's going to be a disaster. We had split people for 15 years not sure who to believe, we finally got majority together now they need to keep it that way. Going back to SDSM is going to ruin us.

You have as good a gauge on what the feeling is over there as probably anyone.

I think Macedonians want to travel freely, and getting Visafree stuff from the E>U in a few years will give them that.

From an economic point of view, people want jobs and there is nothing that can be gained by being a member of the E>U that we can't get through bilaterial relations. It is a tiny economy, and we have seen what good bilateral relations can do for it, particularly the investments of Slovenia and Turkey, and with the Ukraine now gaining some steam. I think they are chasing allusions with the E.U - because they have been told it is great (when in fact that organization negates us). But how does one explain that? I don't know.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I think he is trying to say that even though the Republic of Macedonia is only 39% of the whole of Macedonia, it is 100% Macedonian.

On the other hand, while Greek-occupied Macedonia is 51% of the whole of Macedonia, it is only 5% of Greece.....or something to that effect. The reporter must have made an error, as Greek-occupied Macedonia forms approx. 20-25% of modern Greece, give or take.

[Pelister]

What has Macedonia to gain by submitting? I mean, really gain, and not crumbs.

Free travel to the EU? Isn't this going to be granted anyway soon?

What else is there? There is nothing that could equate to national dignity.

Spot on. We need some national dignity here, and not prostitute ourselves to anyone dangling an illusory carrot.

The Macedonians have already decentralized too much power to the Albanians. From a political point of view, this is likely to happen more so with E.U membership. If you add what the Framework Agreement has already done in terms of giving administrative and jursidictional semi-autonomy to albanians - I think E.U membership would actually be the end of us.

We haven't developed at the same speed as other countries, though no fault of our own. But we need to strengthen ourselves politically (first). This means standing up for our rights - more Macedonian babies, and less Albanians.