United Macedonia Diaspora

[Buktop]

Charlatan,

Its not a matter of just reading the constitution - one needs to have at least a basic understanding of constitutional theory, republicanism and a number of other key concepts. Then you can read the constitution and interpret it coherently.

Charlatan, what you are asking me and the readers of this thread is to accept your incoherrent ramblings over the well-reasoned and time-tested arguments (some of which I posted here for you) of the founding fathers, former Presidents and Congressmen, Supreme Court Judges, political philosophers and historians.

It seems that you're more interested (as usual) in perpetuating the moral and intellectual corruption of Macedonian vassal politicians rather than actually learning something and adjusting your thinking accordingly.

As discussed earlier, I would strongly recommend that you take your theories to a REAL law professor or a political philosopy professor and have them tested.

Rogi, I wouldn't put too much faith in Macedonian "experts". I've seen what the tertiary education system is like there. If you are genuinely interested, I'd advise you to do some reasearch on "constitutionalism", "republicanism" and "limited government". A good place to start is of course a political philosophy book that takes the development of these concepts from Plato to the modern era. However, its also very good to read up on the US founding fathers - they were the first to establish a modern republic and 'limited government' and the US is the oldest republic in existence today.

Once again you don't know when to quit, the actual constitution of Macedonia has been cited for you and you continue to ignore it.

Your problem is with the wording of the constitution not with me or Rogi. Take it up with the illiterate people who tried to write the damn thing. As it stands, the Macedonian constitution allows for the parliament to carry on negotiating.

[Vangelovski]

I'll repeat the important sentence:

Charlatan, what you are asking me and the readers of this thread is to accept your incoherrent ramblings over the well-reasoned and time-tested arguments (some of which I posted here for you) of the founding fathers, former Presidents and Congressmen, Supreme Court Judges, political philosophers and historians.

[TrueMacedonian]

You want me to trawel through thousands of emails - many of which contain current UMD Board members arguing that a name change would be acceptable - to find the EXACT date I resigned. Isn't Jan/Feb 2008 good enough? What if I accidently post the wrong email on here?

Why not end this dispute once and for all and post these damning emails as evidence then? This is a big platform. You will not only prove Pelister and yourself correct you will also put everyone in their place who has disagreed with you guys. Go on. Post them.

[Vangelovski]

Why not end this dispute once and for all and post these damning emails as evidence then? This is a big platform. You will not only prove Pelister and yourself correct you will also put everyone in their place who has disagreed with you guys. Go on. Post them.

TM,

I’m not in the business of divulging the content of private conversations and emails on a public forum. Besides, anyone can invent a few paragraphs and post them here – there is no actual way that I could prove that what I posted was indeed an email written and sent to me by UMD members, unless I was to email it to you, in which case you could reasonably see the email ‘trail’.

Further, how much more evidence do you need than Meto been filmed saying that a name change would be “acceptable” and then speculating about what that name could be. What could possibly be more damning than video evidence? If someone can’t accept that, then no number of emails would convince them. The problem is not a lack of evidence, the problem is UMD’s cheerleaders actually agree with UMD that a name change is “acceptable” and are acting as apologists for UMD.

[Buktop]

Buktop, I can only assume Rogi and Vangelovski represented one end of the scale within UMD. And others still on the board represent the other end of the scale. Call me crazy but I would suggest the scale is irrelevant and that whatever Meto wants Meto gets in the UMD.

Your fact finding mission in relation to the By Laws date really is of no interest to me. I have not seen them, have you? If I was getting increasingly disillusioned with an organisation I was a member of, do you think I would care what plans they had for the future? I am not sure how that helps to explain the concerns many Macedonians have with the UMD and their suggestion that they represent the Macedonian Diaspora.

So if you have no interest why do you even join the debate? Why even say anything at all. You obviously could care less about the actions of UMD. You have not even met or spoken with your Australian representatives, and you are making allegations that are founded on rumors and scaremongering.

Do you have any basis for your allegations that "what Meto wants Meto gets"? Other than the ravings of the likes of Paul and Vangelovski?

[UMDiaspora.org]

[Buktop]

I'll take Rogi's word for it that I resigned on that date (I trust him and I've never had reason not to). But as Rogi pointed out, I had issues with UMD for at least a year or more beforehand. With the by-laws (I think their drafting starting many months before), I was opposing Washington's power grab over the organisation (and effectively the Board). By the time they were adopted, I had effectively stopped participating in UMD, though (as Rogi has pointed out), my official resignation hadn't been emailed until March.

So then you did know the bylaws, and you full well knew that they included elections. Then why did you try and claim they didn't?

[Prolet]

Jankovska, War should be avoided at all costs however once it starts there is no rule of law, because everyone is either committing murder or attempted murder every time they shoot with a gun. What where the Croats suppose to do when they where attacked and bombed?? Im not condoning war crimes, however if you where attacked im sure you would do far worse, when somebody comes to your house and beats up your husband and takes away the kids believe me you would also commit a war crime.

[Buktop]

TM,

I’m not in the business of divulging the content of private conversations and emails on a public forum. Besides, anyone can invent a few paragraphs and post them here – there is no actual way that I could prove that what I posted was indeed an email written and sent to me by UMD members, unless I was to email it to you, in which case you could reasonably see the email ‘trail’.

Further, how much more evidence do you need than Meto been filmed saying that a name change would be “acceptable” and then speculating about what that name could be. What could possibly be more damning than video evidence? If someone can’t accept that, then no number of emails would convince them. The problem is not a lack of evidence, the problem is UMD’s cheerleaders actually agree with UMD that a name change is “acceptable” and are acting as apologists for UMD.

The actual quote states that the "Diaspora MAY be accepting". He never says that the Diaspora SHOULD accept this change.

[Vangelovski]

Buktop, I said the UMD Board is unelected. Show me when they held elections in the 5 years they've been active? As for the by-laws, I do not have a final copy of the adopted ones.

Who is Meto to speculate on what names might be "acceptable"?

[Prolet]

If you believe politicians and government administrators then you are gulliable. At post graduate school they quite speifically teach you that each article or media comment should be scrutinized and analyzed before you make your opinion and wheher it has some truth or ethics behind it.

People need to wake up from their "wet" dreams if they think that America is a friend of Maco. USA has only friends with benefits and then it disposes them!!! What has America done to suggest that they are friends of Maco?? It has recognised Maco so their military personnel can use the roads leading to Maco and within Maco and in return Macedonia is their lap dog by taking all the crap from Kosovo. Also we are the laughing stock of having troops fighting US wars. That is not a friend, which also encourages you to change the constitution and advises you that staying in negotiations that will compromise your name is a good idea. Also the Yanks can do as the please in Macedonia, just have a look at their embassy in Skopje. After all that pleasing, we still can not go and be their guests in their made up NATO organisation. Does anyone really thing that Greece would have made a veto if USA wanted us there!! Its their organisation and they can choose and pick as they please, but when it comes to less important coutries such as Macedonia, well they need to go through the process where Greece is our judge. Do you have such friends??? The sooner Macedonia and their cronies distance themselves from friends like America the better. At the same time we dont need to become enemies either. When it comes to the crunch the Yanks will always side with the Albanians and Greeks!!! Perfect example is Georgia, US used them and abused and when it came to the crunch they stood back whilst Russia smashed Georgia to pieces. If anyone thinks anything else they have semki for brains!!!

Warrior, Ambassador Reeker said that Macedonia doesnt have a better friend then USA, how much clearer should he be??

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

I’m not in the business of divulging the content of private conversations and emails on a public forum. Besides, anyone can invent a few paragraphs and post them here – there is no actual way that I could prove that what I posted was indeed an email written and sent to me by UMD members, unless I was to email it to you, in which case you could reasonably see the email ‘trail’.

Further, how much more evidence do you need than Meto been filmed saying that a name change would be “acceptable” and then speculating about what that name could be. What could possibly be more damning than video evidence? If someone can’t accept that, then no number of emails would convince them. The problem is not a lack of evidence, the problem is UMD’s cheerleaders actually agree with UMD that a name change is “acceptable” and are acting as apologists for UMD.

Then email someone on this forum who everyone will accept as un-biased enough to confirm what you say? Would you agree with this? If so then let us know because I will nominate an admin on this forum who has not written one word on this topic or other topics concerning this issue who I know everyone will find un-biased. Then we can once and for all bury this issue.

[Buktop]

Buktop, I said the UMD Board is unelected. Show me when they held elections in the 5 years they've been active? As for the by-laws, I do not have a final copy of the adopted ones.

Who is Meto to speculate on what names might be "acceptable"?

He is a memeber of the Diaspora, same thing goes for this Goran Popcanovski, they can speculate all they want.

Secondly, did you or did you not state this previously?

The management structures were put in place and people just took on roles (this needs to be done for any upstart organisation)

Thirdly, does your copy of the bylaws include the clause on elections, I am pretty sure that would be a clause of importance within the bylaws so I don't think it would be left out of an early draft.

Fourth, You were a board member at the time of adoption of the bylaws, which means you should be aware of the final copy.


Do you want me to post all of your quotes where you explicitly misrepresent the UMD's position on elections?

[Vangelovski]

He is a memeber of the Diaspora, same thing goes for this Goran Popcanovski, they can speculate all they want.

Secondly, did you or did you not state this previously?
Thirdly, does your copy of the bylaws include the clause on elections, I am pretty sure that would be a clause of importance within the bylaws so I don't think it would be left out of an early draft.

Fourth, You were a board member at the time of adoption of the bylaws, which means you should be aware of the final copy.


Do you want me to post all of your quotes where you explicitly misrepresent the UMD's position on elections?

Charlatan,

I should have defined an "upstart" organisation - one that has just been founded. I don't think it is reasonable to call a 4 Year old organisation "upstart". Especially one that had fee paying members at the time.

UMD will hold its first elections in 2011 - 7 YEARS after it was originally founded.

I also never claimed that UMD had no "election" clause - I said the Board in all its 5-6 years, has never been elected by the members and therefore is NOT representative.

It might do you good to go back and read my posts and then yes, by all means, post them again.

[Warrior]

Warrior, Ambassador Reeker said that Macedonia doesnt have a better friend then USA, how much clearer should he be??

Thats all he did, where are the actions to support that friendship from the US side.
I think i gave you plenty of examples that US is not a friend of Maco when you look at their actions in the past. I did not include the Arachinovo incident and also the civil war in Egejska. Traditionally the West is not Macedonians friends and traditionally they are Greeces mates!!!