United Macedonia Diaspora

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Interesting tidbit about the UMD ..

Seniors, know very little about what the UMD do yet join and attend their wine and cheese parties and the youth seem to know a wee bit more yet are unwilling to join or attend.

Wise Macedonian Youth

[George S.]

I remember when the umd promissed to stop the name negotiations & they wrote letters to gruevski etc.We are still waiting on that one that was a couple of years ago.Now we are aware that it actually supports the name negotiations .As we know that it supports entry into nato or eu by using existing name of "The Fyrom".The greeks are not going to accept entry with that name they will veto the fyrom.Also We know that the umd actually supports the interim accord. Virtually anything the ROM govt supports,the umd it will do in their own interests.So no wonder the umd not wanting to be transparent to members or the MTO did not & still doesn't want to answer RTG's questions about the UMD.Well as Meto found that no answers means no free advertising.

[Vangelovski]

Easter service and a Macedonian convention can pull together a lot of good Macedonians. Is that all the UMD did (which, in your eyes, amounted to doing a great deal for the Macedonian Cause) before you resigned?

Really, I've never seen an Easter service or a convention pull together (in an organised manner for a specific purpose as per the context of this conversation) a bunch of good Macedonians.

You've tested my patience Victor, get to the point.

[vicsinad]

You've tested my patience Victor, get to the point.

Oh, no...I better not ask any questions Tom doesn't want to answer, or else Tom will get impatient.

[Vangelovski]

Oh, no...I better not ask any questions Tom doesn't want to answer, or else Tom will get impatient.

So as usual, you have no point?

[Makedonska_Kafana]

vicsinad, how many Macedonian events have you attended during the past 12 months and please name them.

[vicsinad]

So as usual, you have no point?

And why don't you want to answer the question, Tom?

[Vangelovski]

And why don't you want to answer the question, Tom?

I already have. What don't you get? Do you have a point? Are you going anywhere with this? Or you just trying to waste virtual space?

[vicsinad]

I already have. What don't you get?

So the only "great deal" of positive things that UMD did for the Macedonian cause, prior to your resignation, is pull together good Macedonians?

[Vangelovski]

So the only "great deal" of positive things that UMD did for the Macedonian cause, prior to your resignation, is pull together good Macedonians?

I don't think your naivety quite realises the significance of that. But I wouldn't expect someone of your 'calibre' to appreciate this.

Few Macedonian organisations have been able to organise and commit intelligent and effective people. But the course UMD took, under Meto's leadership drove them off. I was neither the first nor the last to go.

There were other activities that UMD achieved, which were of value, but some of them were undertaken by myself and some others, without the "blessing" of Meto who along with his cronies resisted forcefully. So, I'm not sure whether that can be technically credited to UMD or not. A lot of this has already been discussed, you might want to read through this thread before parroting the same old stuff.

Get to your point Victor, this is the last time I will respond unless you actually have something of substance to say rather than just repeating the same old BS that has already been addressed.

[vicsinad]

I don't think your naivety quite realises the significance of that. But I wouldn't expect someone of your 'calibre' to appreciate this.

Few Macedonian organisations have been able to organise and commit intelligent and effective people. But the course UMD took, under Meto's leadership drove them off. I was neither the first nor the last to go.

There were other activities that UMD achieved, which were of value, but some of them were undertaken by myself and some others, without the "blessing" of Meto who along with his cronies resisted forcefully. So, I'm not sure whether that can be technically credited to UMD or not. A lot of this has already been discussed, you might want to read through this thread before parroting the same old stuff.

Get to your point Victor, this is the last time I will respond unless you actually have something of substance to say rather than just repeating the same old BS that has already been addressed.

I guess there's something there.

Well, in general, I'm curious as how the MTO plans on achieving this:

"The unity of all Macedonians on the principles, objectives and achievement of the Macedonian cause as defined by this declaration."

This, of course, is one of your stated aims. How does MTO reconcile its actions, statements and attitudes toward other Macedonians with the above stated aim?

You attack and render useless any Macedonian who does not see things quite the same as you. Yet, you claim to want to unite ALL Macedonians under these principles. So, what steps is the MTO taking to unite ALL Macedonians (including members and leaders of the UMD) under these principles? Surely, at one point, even post-resignation from UMD, you acknowledged that UMD had done a great deal for the Macedonian Cause (your words). At one point, you would even acknowledge they were doing something good for the Macedonian Cause; now, they are a bunch of cronies (yet, Macedonian cronies). How does your approach to dealing with Macedonians, and the UMD in particular, these past 4 years further MTO's goal of uniting ALL Macedonians?

And if the MTO does have a "plan" (a written one, perhaps?) regarding this, do you think it is working?

Or is that specific aim simply "all talk" in order to get some Macedonians on board with you?

[Vangelovski]

I guess there's something there.

Well, in general, I'm curious as how the MTO plans on achieving this:

"The unity of all Macedonians on the principles, objectives and achievement of the Macedonian cause as defined by this declaration."

This, of course, is one of your stated aims. How does MTO reconcile its actions, statements and attitudes toward other Macedonians with the above stated aim?

You attack and render useless any Macedonian who does not see things quite the same as you. Yet, you claim to want to unite ALL Macedonians under these principles. So, what steps is the MTO taking to unite ALL Macedonians (including members and leaders of the UMD) under these principles? Surely, at one point, even post-resignation from UMD, you acknowledged that UMD had done a great deal for the Macedonian Cause (your words). At one point, you would even acknowledge they were doing something good for the Macedonian Cause; now, they are a bunch of cronies (yet, Macedonian cronies). How does your approach to dealing with Macedonians, and the UMD in particular, these past 4 years further MTO's goal of uniting ALL Macedonians?

And if the MTO does have a "plan" (a written one, perhaps?) regarding this, do you think it is working?

Or is that specific aim simply "all talk" in order to get some Macedonians on board with you?

Thats a fair question Victor, I don't know why you danced around for so long instead of just coming out and asking.

Firstly, the MTO has committed itself to working towards the unity of all Macedonians along the principles we have put forward in our definition of the cause. Whether we, or anyone for that matter, can actually achieve that is a completely different issue, to which the answer is probably no. But why set our sights low?

There will always be Macedonians who, like yourself, support anti-Macedonian ideas (such as the Badinter Principle). UMD falls into this category. Many people, including myself, had pleaded with UMD for years to rethink their position, but they have refused to even discuss their views. They've taken an anti-Macedonian stance all on their own - we did not force or encourage them to do so.

The more patriotic Macedonians left UMD, the more UMD, led by Meto, took an anti-Macedonian stand. Their support for the Interim Accord, name negotiations, name changes, the Framework Agreement and even their own suggestions for name changes were all their own ideas and their own policies. What once started out with promise has now become the leading anti-Macedonian organisation in the diaspora. In the begining, UMD was not what it is today - it actually had a purpose and a plan. I didn't agree with 100 per cent of that, but the fundamentals were good enough (I thought at the time) to be able to work with. Now, UMD is completely lost.

Pointing this out is not an "attack". Its calling a spade a spade and is an integral part of the free and democratic exchange of ideas. And they are certainly not useless as human beings or even as Macedonians in general, but they are useless in relation to achieving the Macedonian cause. In fact, I would go beyond useless, I would say they are making it harder because they are actively working against it by continuingly advocating for EU/NATO membership under the FYROM terminoloyg, continuingly advocating for the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement and so on. When someone is working against the cause, how can they at the same time be of any use in achieving it? How do you reconcile that?

Maybe rather than parroting the same old UMD lines, you should actually think about what your saying. I think the more pertinent question here is, what do you disagree with in the cause and why?

[Risto the Great]

vicsinad, you've really got to look at yourself. You agree with the Badinter principle yet can't seem to explain why you do not support the Framework Agreement. We have taken you to task on the matter and you have simply "bitched out". Don't worry, we don't want you on board, you are of no use whatsoever to the Macedonian Cause if your support for Badinter is any indication.

We definitely want all Macedonians to unite under the Macedonian Cause as defined. Ones like you are simply not welcome until you fully grasp the significance of and embrace the Cause (as defined).

I note your bitching about the Cause was limited to asking God to help us. You quite possibly disagree with a whole lot of other things but have not mentioned them. In fact, I doubt you disagree with any other matter but simply have not extended a logical analysis of them to your own demented perspective as they relate to your personal show of faith in the Badinter principle.

One day when you feel particularly impassioned you might realise this field for cultural competition does indeed have rules and that you have broken one of them rather severely. Feel free to go back to bitching away. You might even become SDSm's new poster boy one day.

The MTO does indeed wish to be a uniting force for all who agree with the Cause as defined.

This isn't the UMD. We don't invite corrupt politicians to blow wind up their arses here. You probably have found this far too confrontational. I recommend the UMD for your kind of Macedonianness. It is the more USA friendly kind of brand.

[Phoenix]

Vangelovski and Risto, well put. If Vic still doesn't get it, he never will.

[vicsinad]

“Firstly, the MTO has committed itself to working towards the unity of all Macedonians along the principles we have put forward in our definition of the cause. Whether we, or anyone for that matter, can actually achieve that is a completely different issue, to which the answer is probably no. But why set our sights low?”

So the MTO has set its sights on achieving something it knows probably cannot be achieved. You make a mistake by assuming that setting realistic goals might necessarily mean having lower aims: a realistic goal does not mean you have to set your sights any lower. This still leaves the ultimate question unanswered: how are you going to unite all Macedonians under the principles that are highlighted in your cause? And if that goal is improbable, what is the true reason for having that as an aim?

“There will always be Macedonians who, like yourself, support anti-Macedonian ideas (such as the Badinter Principle).”

Who gets to decide what views and ideas are anti-Macedonian? Does the MTO get to decide what constitutes anti-Macedonian? Or is it all the Macedonians? Is it Macedonian citizens? Or is it the Macedonian Diaspora? You can argue that, based off what you know about inherent natural rights, democracy and political realities and how you apply that knowledge to the issues facing Macedonia and the Macedonians, the only natural and reasonable inferences or conclusions are that certain ideas, statements and actions are anti-Macedonian. Yet, the same applies to every person who care to think about the issues. Whether labeling of Macedonians with whom you disagree as anti-Macedonian is accurate or not is one discussion. But the labeling of Macedonians as such (who probably care about Macedonia and Macedonian issues just as much and are just as invested as you) is not only inconsistent with “working toward” the achievement of uniting Macedonians under the principles for which the MTO stands, it is antithetical to that aim. Moreover, it could be logically (and then again, circularly) that the approach is more anti-Macedonian itself than the actions of those who are being labeled anti-Macedonian.


“Pointing this out is not an "attack". Its calling a spade a spade and is an integral part of the free and democratic exchange of ideas.”

Labeling and categorizing are not integral parts of free and democratic exchange of ideas; neither are ridiculing and name-calling. Rather, they are the unhealthy byproducts of not being able to convincingly present one's own views. For example, you may believe that what one Macedonian does is “anti-Macedonian.” Another Macedonian may believe some of what you do is “anti-Macedonian.” Yet, in a free and democratic exchange of ideas, if it is so astoundingly clear that one’s views are not in line with a pro-Macedonian agenda, wouldn’t that persons views stand out as such without the need for the label? However, you use the “anti-Macedonian” line simply to dissuade others from assuming a view that you disagree with. Your use of “anti-Macedonian” is not “calling a spade a spade.” Rather, it’s an irresponsible approach to discussing the issues and an insult to the other side of the coin of freedom of speech – mainly, freedom from responsibility, liability and dangerous consequences for how you say what you say. It fringes on slander, libel and character defamation.

“In fact, I would go beyond useless, I would say they are making it harder because they are actively working against it by continuingly advocating for EU/NATO membership under the FYROM terminoloyg, continuingly advocating for the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement and so on.”

When Meto suggested that Democratic Republic of Macedonia was a better alternative than fYRoM for the international level, you clearly were against it, not because DRM was or wasn’t better than fYRoM, but because you were against the Interim Accord. So first, to be fair to both you and UMD, you would disagree with them on any name they use to join EU/NATO unless it was the Republic of Macedonia. UMD probably took a different approach and viewpoint (though, I understand they’ve been all over the map) and considered that their efforts would be better directed at promoting NATO and EU membership under the current Interim Accord name (or DRM) because it would help the Macedonian people economically and with security. They probably believed that their resources and efforts would be more efficiently used that way than trying to get Macedonia to brush off the Interim Accord. You disagree with this, and you vehemently disagree with this. And it may be that the UMD is full of cronies and heeds only to the RoM governments wishes, and it may be that the consequences of such will have negative effects for Macedonia and Macedonians. But to label them, their views and people who hold similar views as anti-Macedonian is not productive; rather, it’s harmful to the MTO’s agenda of uniting people under MTO’s principles.

“When someone is working against the cause, how can they at the same time be of any use in achieving it? How do you reconcile that?”

I don’t. But I don’t necessarily see many Macedonians working against the Macedonian cause. I think all Macedonians have pretty much the same vision and goals for Macedonia. I don’t really see a fundamental difference in principles and desires. I see fundamental differences in approaches and plans. And some of these approaches are worse and some are better. Does this amount to anti-Macedonian? No. Does it mean that Macedonians have to keep on dividing? No. It means they have to work with each other where they do have common ground. No, no one should compromise their beliefs, principles and values. But there is always room for collaboration, no matter how far apart you may be.


“Maybe rather than parroting the same old UMD lines, you should actually think about what your saying.”

Approach and attitude. There will always be consequences, intended and unintended, to what you say. It’s not how I perceive you, it’s how others will perceive you. You could be right about 99% of the issues, but when your packaging is wrong and your delivery off target… well, you’ll find out. Give it another 5 years.

I do not have many fundamental differences with the MTO’s definition of the cause. I have fundamental disagreements with MTO’s approach to and handling of other Macedonians. I helped initiate MOYANA in Detroit in 2003/2004 and I backed out because I could no longer identify as an Orthodox Christian. But I haven’t stopped being Macedonian and I haven’t stopped caring about Macedonian culture and Macedonian issues. Which leads me to Risto:

“One day when you feel particularly impassioned you might realise this field for cultural competition does indeed have rules and that you have broken one of them rather severely.”

I’m concerned more about peoples, cultures and languages than I am about political boundaries or ethnic affiliation based primarily on blood line or ancestry. This has made me unpopular amongst some Macedonians in the past, and I understand (but don’t agree) how people can see that as being a “little less Macedonian.” However, I’m dedicated to the preservation of Macedonian culture and language (which, I see very little of from any Diaspora group aside from MHRMI and AMHRC’s work in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania); the proliferation of traditional Macedonian music; and humanitarian and environmental efforts. (As a side note, for these reasons and many more, regardless of how big or little our political differences, I highly detest the labeling of me and my views as anti-Macedonian)

Leaders and economic power-players used and still use culture as a means of creating and maintaining political nations in order to hold onto power, leave a legacy, and manipulate capital. The diversity of the dialects of the Macedonian people are fading away as village elders die and the literary Macedonian language takes roots in the younger generations. That is one way of many that local Macedonian cultures were harmed for the sake of a political, national body. Yes, cultural competition is very real, but the competition isn’t stemming from other cultural interests. No, it is rather stemming from economic, security, and individual interests.