United Macedonia Diaspora

[Risto the Great]

You might not be aware that SoM was quite an UMD advocate long after my love affair with UMD subsided. Here is his overview of a number of statements made by them:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3485

Some happy reminders of the good ole days:

We have to be realistic, Macedonia if it wants to join NATO and EU it has to join under a modified name for those organizations ONLY.

How happy are you that we are called "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in NATO, UN, and EU? I'm not....wouldn't you prefer us to be called something like Democratic Republic of Macedonia instead, IF ALL ELSE FAILS, of course? I sure would. However, until all else fails, our position is double formula.

Meto Koloski
13 March 2008

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Macedo.../message/10565

..."we feel that perhaps a political modifier such as Democratic might be more acceptable only for international use to get rid of this erroneous name the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"...

You are so defensive of the UMD. Since you have decided to be their own little personal saviour, why don't you try to open the lines of dialogue and be constructive about this obvious difference of opinion. As a sign of goodwill, why don't you clarify why Meto was talking about changing the name of Macedonia and why he has never admitted the error of his ways.

Further to that, try to clarify why the Diaspora's obligation is to blindly fulfill the wishes of the Macedonian Government. See the UMD MTO Youtube videos.

While you are at it, tell me why the UMD is such an important organisation given its miniscule membership. Oh, also tell us how many renewals it has had in the last 12 months.

Why did you answer "it depends" when I asked you if you agree with the Macedonian Cause? It either works for you or it does not. You sound like the UMD. As an example, if you think a name change is cool .... the Macedonian Cause is not for you ... the UMD is.

[stravdziger]

stravdziger
Quote:
"Thanks Risto, but your so-called evidence that "UMD thought Macedonia should change its name" is not on Youtube, nor is it elsewhere."

Hey shit for brains, here you go here's your evidence, all you had to do was check the thread above this one, which by the way has yet to be responded to, perhaps you can have a go at answering all the questions and justifying the staments in the below thread!
"United Macedonian Diaspora - Views, Actions and Statements"

Look, dedo, I read your propaganda sheet completely, and the fact the remains that RTG's assertion - "UMD thought Macedonia should change its name" and "UMD thought changing the name is a good idea"- is not supported by your so-called evidence. Maybe you can't read English? Maybe you should go have a nap, you sound irritable.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

the world diaspora

Please don't confuse that with the UMD, check the numbers ..

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Since you have decided to be their own little personal saviour

Sadly, it's been their greatest downfall and if you don't believe me check other websites stats and the effect it has had the past 6 months - major traffic loss.

[stravdziger]

You might not be aware that SoM was quite an UMD advocate long after my love affair with UMD subsided

No, I was not aware, RTG, and now that I am aware, it provokes the question: who cares? And who is asking anyone to "love" the UMD? What is this, the USSR? I certainly don't "love" the UMD, or any organization. I love Macedonia and I want to see her succeed. And I know that we need to get involved, to get engaged, to do our part... and not to tear down our brothers and sisters over donor turf wars. Patriotic Macedonians can support the UMD, the AMHRC, and others... or, they can sort of support them... or they can not support them at all / be indifferent to them, and focus on making a contribution in some other area of value... that is all well and good. Ultimately, we all are adults, and we need to make up their own minds and act on that. But the white hot anger and bloody hatred expressed on this website is not patriotism. It's mostly stupidity, it's a kind of bigotry, it's very "Hellenic" in nature actually, and it's like a self-inflicted wound for our people. If I were a moderator on a site that wanted to be taken seriously, like SOM for instance, I would attempt to be "moderate" in some capacity, and promote that.

Some happy reminders of the good ole days:
We have to be realistic, Macedonia if it wants to join NATO and EU it has to join under a modified name for those organizations ONLY.

How happy are you that we are called "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in NATO, UN, and EU? I'm not....wouldn't you prefer us to be called something like Democratic Republic of Macedonia instead, IF ALL ELSE FAILS, of course? I sure would. However, until all else fails, our position is double formula.

Meto Koloski
13 March 2008

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Macedo.../message/10565

..."we feel that perhaps a political modifier such as Democratic might be more acceptable only for international use to get rid of this erroneous name the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"...

Ok, for argument's sake, I'll preface this by saying that I am going to assume your two year old quote from a yahoo groups website is authentic, and just take it as face value that you haven't intentionally fabricated it or edited it. You're welcome.

Your accusation is: "UMD thought Macedonia should change its name", but neither quote you provided supports that in the least. Further, I don't know that such any isolated remark taken out of context by one person can provide support for your accusation anyway, which is that all of UMD thought (think?) Macedonia should change its name, when you willfully omit signed amendments, press releases, publications and a clear track record of action that proves the contrary.

This is why, in frustration, I recently referred to your website as a "circle-jerk", because that's what it has become at times... five or six papagali, yammering and circling around the same "truths" to each other, and meanwhile it is all a big load of Australian sheep shit.... there's lots of noise, there's lots of feathers in the air, but there's no substance. It's no wonder to me that more UMD members don't engage you or don't answer every retarded question that gets asked... they must have better things to do. And once I am finished my point, I will probably go away as well, but I'll still keep my eye on this site, and I'll rain on your little inaet parade from time to time... unless SOM feels the need to ban me, that is.

Let's take a closer look at what Meto actually seems to be stating in those quotes: nothing more than the obvious, which is that both NATO and the EU are organizations where individual members have veto powers (its part of the constitution when then joined, not easy to change), and one of those members is Greece, and, what are the chances that Greece will not exercise its veto? We all know and we all agree that it is 0%. What is so hard to understand about that? Unless you are intentionally unwilling to understand.

Since Macedonia already entered the UN under the "provisional reference" of FYR Macedonia, I think it's entirely likely that, when push comes to shove, Gruevski might accept NATO membership under that provisional reference as well, for internal NATO purposes only, and maintain the name Republic of Macedonia, if his government felt the ELECTORATE would see that as an acceptable deal.

Meto is essentially commenting on the reality of the situation, i.e. dealing with reality. He is not advocating a change of name, plain and simple. I don't know what the knuckleheads want him to do, talk about taking back the occupied territories by force with U.S. senators, perhaps? Da se izdishi pret svetot, like a over-emotional seljak, da mu e po lesno? No, he's trying to discuss politics with adults, and talking about hard realities.

In the second part, he's essentially talking about replacing the term "Yugoslav" from this provisional reference and replacing it with "Democratic" which is essentially a non-issue. We are not Slavs, and the Republic ne e na jug na nisto osven Srbija... so the term "Yugoslav" is a pretty stupid aspect of this reference, in the 21st century, when the Tito is dead, and the country Yugoslavia died with him.

You are so defensive of the UMD. Since you have decided to be their own little personal saviour, why don't you try to open the lines of dialogue and be constructive about this obvious difference of opinion. As a sign of goodwill, why don't you clarify why Meto was talking about changing the name of Macedonia and why he has never admitted the error of his ways.

Because I think board members need to take this responsibility, frankly, but also because it has be on an official level, with the people who run AMHRC, et al and and the people who run UMD sitting down together and hammering out some kind of understanding like full-grown men. As for your desire for Meto say "I'm sorry", I think you can stuff that in your pipe and smoke it. I'm sure we all have things in our lives that we're sorry for, I certainly do, but if the pre-requisite to a better relationship is to say "all the bullshit you say about me is right, I'm sorry", then his response should be a polite form of "fuck you", that's what I would advise young Meto to say. This is not a pre-school. I agree that Meto is green in some ways, but he has nothing to publicly apologize for.

Why did you answer "it depends" when I asked you if you agree with the Macedonian Cause? It either works for you or it does not.

That's NOT what I said at all! I thought you had more of a brain in your head, RTG, and wouldn't resort to outright lies. The original question was about the Macedonian Cause "as it's defined on your site by your members". That's a big qualifier. And the answer to that question is: it depends. There are some aspects of what I've read that I respect, but there are other aspects that I think are complete bullshit. Just like this comment you just made.

Also, your "my way or the highway" theme is a fascist tendency, RTG, you know that, right? It's not patriotism you're peddling, it's snake oil.

[Risto the Great]

Thanks Meto (may as well be anyway).
I will let others determine the merits of your most recent justifications. I reckon they are very weak and scream apologist. The idea that Meto was merely commenting on the realities of what the Macedonian government MIGHT do is optimistic. But what is clear is the the Diaspora is disgusted by this potential outcome and any organisation (no matter how miniscule its membership is) who does not admonish such actions is of no use to the Macedonian Diaspora.

Be a good little Democratic Macedonian and go away will you.

That's NOT what I said at all! I thought you had more of a brain in your head, RTG, and wouldn't resort to outright lies. The original question was about the Macedonian Cause "as it's defined on your site by your members". That's a big qualifier. And the answer to that question is: it depends. There are some aspects of what I've read that I respect, but there are other aspects that I think are complete bullshit. Just like this comment you just made.

Also, your "my way or the highway" theme is a fascist tendency, RTG, you know that, right? It's not patriotism you're peddling, it's snake oil.

You have clearly stated you think some aspects of the Macedonian Cause are "complete bullshit". Be honest and tell us what parts are complete bullshit. Read it again:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1303

I would dearly like to know what part of being Macedonian you clearly suffer a deficiency in. My guess is that the name does not mean much for you. Perhaps we can create a new one for you called the Democratic Macedonian Cause.

I note you did not answer my other questions. The membership one was of particular interest to me. Surely you know the answer Meto.

By the way, I have no idea why you introduced AMHRC into this discussion. Is there a chip on your shoulder?

[makedonche]

Look, dedo, I read your propaganda sheet completely, and the fact the remains that RTG's assertion - "UMD thought Macedonia should change its name" and "UMD thought changing the name is a good idea"- is not supported by your so-called evidence. Maybe you can't read English? Maybe you should go have a nap, you sound irritable.

Which part of the thread I referred you to are you having difficulty understanding? Would you like me to start a thread in crayons for you with pictures and explanations? The thread raises serious concerns and questions, which if you had an ounce of integrity you would also be asking! You make amazing accusations/statements about people here not being patriotic or not doing anything to unite Macedonians and having a go at our Macerdonian brothers, yet you are quite happy to have a go at most people here in the same manner you accuse people of acting -WTF?
Now be a good little boy and have a go at answering the questions in the thread I referred you to, that way you can demonstrate your superior intelligence and superior patriotism and then you can post your plan to save Macedonia on here as well so that we all may be in awe of your superiority.

[stravdziger]

Be a good little Democratic Macedonian and go away will you.

Can you stand to have your half-baked ideas be challenged for a change, RTG? Or do you prefer to silence those who dare to disagree with you? Hey, it's your website... you can ban me any time you like, though if you do, it just proves my point.

You have clearly stated you think some aspects of the Macedonian Cause are "complete bullshit". Be honest and tell us what parts are complete bullshit. Read it again:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1303

Ah, Risto, you are really starting to disappoint me now, I expected more from you. All you can do is reply with more and more intentional misinformation.

You know damn well that I have never seen that thread until now, and that is not at all what I'd been referring to previously. To suggest that is simply a LIE.

Incidentally, there are no parts of that linked statement that qualify as bullshit in my mind or in the mind of any patriotic Macedonian. I agree with it completely and I think it is very well put.

Unfortunately, on a day to day basis, loyalists to a particular organization frequent this website and behave in a way that systematically undermines those well-stated goals... and over what? 30 pieces of silver?

If you truly think that the only way to advance the Macedonian Cause is to tear down your brothers in America and elsewhere, your brothers who are actually fighting to benefit the Macedonian Cause, mnogu si zgresen. The Macedonian diaspora has endured that kind of regressive thinking for far far too long, and what you're sellin', they ain't buyin', simple as that.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Let's take a closer look at what Meto actually seems to be stating in those quotes:

Since Macedonia already entered the UN under the "provisional reference" of FYR Macedonia, I think it's entirely likely that, when push comes to shove, Gruevski might accept NATO membership under that provisional reference as well, for internal NATO purposes only, and maintain the name Republic of Macedonia, if his government felt the ELECTORATE would see that as an acceptable deal.

Bravo, you DON'T represent the diaspora in ANYWAY and you just made that perfectly clear - UMD personal agenda. No need to reply no one will read this last F**k up. The UMD appoligists have put that organization into a major free fall .. keep it up folks!

- we will no longer reply on public forums (lest we forget)

[stravdziger]

... Now be a good little boy and have a go at answering the questions in the thread I referred you to...

Ok, makedonche, poveli:

We have to be realistic, Macedonia if it wants to join NATO and EU it has to join under a modified name for those organizations ONLY.

> Under the current conditions, with Greece holding a veto in both organizations this is a self-evident fact. That doesn't mean the statement supports a name change.

How happy are you that we are called "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in NATO, UN, and EU? I'm not....wouldn't you prefer us to be called something like Democratic Republic of Macedonia instead, IF ALL ELSE FAILS, of course? I sure would. However, until all else fails, our position is double formula.

>And? The name of the Republic of Macedonia is / must remain that forever. That's the UMD policy, too. However, the suggestion being made here is that a provisional reference of DR Macedonia is preferable to FYR Macedonia, if only for removing the word Yugoslav.

..."we feel that perhaps a political modifier such as Democratic might be more acceptable only for international use to get rid of this erroneous name the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"...

> Again, this doesn't clearly state Macedonia should change the nation's name, but rather the provisional reference. It is a comment about removing the word "Yugsolav" not a comment about changing the nation's constitutional name. That's especially obvious since 130 contries have already recognized Republic of Macedonia. This name must not change, and the UMD policy on this is very clear.

If the government did not agree on FYROM in 1995, we would have been 10 years behind right now. Macedonia would still be under embargo and 20,000 people would have been without a job.

> It's impossible to say for certain what would have happened to the Republic under indefinite embargo and international political limbo, especially when Milosevic had just recently cleared out the barracks of all JNA equipment, and some were predicting the republic's demise. The suggestion that R. Makedonija's economic development would have been severely impeded without UN recognition and with an indefinite embargo, especially regarding gasoline, is a self-evident fact to any reasonable person.

Let me ask you this? What will you choose?
People in Macedonia dying and starving or “Democratic Republic of Macedonia”?

> This is a very hypothetical piece of angry hyperbole, and therefore probably not worth saying... If the Greek embargo had remained in place until 2011, the damage to Macedonia would have been severe, and its impossible to say what would have happened by now.

...I DO NOT SUPPORT ANY NAME CHANGE THAT WILL ENDANGER OUR IDENTITY...

> Nope, neither do I. And UMD policy is no change whatsoever.

...It was Greece, not Macedonia, that rejected the most recent proposal to resolve the "name dispute" [Referring to “Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)”]. Moreover, Greece's veto violated the 1995 Interim Accord that it signed with Macedonia, which binds Greece's right to veto Macedonia's NATO bid or any other international organization that Macedonia would like to join as long as it joins under the U.N. provisional reference term used to identify Macedonia...

> And? To the best of my knowledge, this is simply a statement of fact.

...American policy on Macedonia’s NATO admission is in alignment with Article 11 of the Interim Accord, which bars Greece from impeding Macedonia’s accession to international bodies, including NATO, as long as Macedonia accedes under the Provisional Reference. A veto of Macedonia’s NATO admission based on Greece’s objection to Macedonia’s name would nullify the Interim Accord...

> Yes, that is correct, a simple statement of fact.



.

..The 1995 Interim Accord between Macedonia and Greece normalized relations, ended an illegal Greek trade embargo, and allowed Macedonia’s admission to the United Nations under the provisional reference term, “The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” (the “Provisional Reference”)...

> Well, most of this is accurate, although the word "normalized" is a poor choice of term. The Interim Accord ended the Greece's embargo, but the current relations aren't exactly normal. Of course, anyone who read the whole article, and not just one de-contextualized sentence, would know full well that no one was trying to suggest that Greek-Macedonian relations were normal, post '95.

…The Greek veto violates the 1995 United Nations brokered Interim Accord between Macedonia and Greece, which barred Greece from using the "name dispute" to impede Macedonia's NATO accession…

> Statement of fact.

At the April 2008 NATO Summit in Bucharest, Macedonia's invitation to join NATO was denied when Greece vetoed it, based on its unilateral objections to Macedonia's constitutional name. This veto directly violated the Interim Accord between Greece and Macedonia, brokered by the United Nations in 1995 following a three-year economic embargo Greece imposed on Macedonia. The accord stipulates that Greece will not block Macedonia from joining international organizations, as long as Macedonia does so under the UN-brokered name, "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia," pending a UN-facilitated, mutually acceptable name resolution.

> Statement of fact.

In 2001, Albanian extremists attacked Macedonian police officers and burned villages, demanding more rights in education, employment, and political representation. Through a U.S. - EU brokered agreement, the conflict was resolved and Macedonian-Albanians were accorded full rights, including higher education courses in the Albanian language and a 25% set-aside for the army, police force, and public administration. Today, Macedonian-Albanians fully participate in social and economic development, working with their countrymen to ensure the nation's membership into NATO and the EU.

> The term "full rights" is a bit vague. I don't know exactly what he means by that, and a better term could have been used. However, in general, this is a statement of fact.

“We understand the frustrations that ethnic Albanians feel regarding the mistakes contained within the Macedonian Encyclopedia. However, we remind everyone and Mr. Krasniqi that MANU is reviewing and has promised to correct these mistakes, with input from well-regarded Albanian-Macedonian academics"

>The fact is that Ahmeti has not been indicted for war crimes by the Hague, and the article suggested that he had been, which isn't the case. So, the Siptars complained, and they rewrote the article. As for the question of "should Ahmeti be indicted by the Hague" the answer is yes, in my opinion. But the fact remains that he was not. Of course, Vangelovski never lets the facts get in the way of his argument!

"With American cooperation and support, Macedonia has emerged as a model of multi-ethnic peace and stability in a region long plagued with strife and well known for its inter-ethnic tensions".

> That is true. Minorities enjoy rights in Macedonia that are denied to minorities in neighboring states. Everyone knows that. The Americans have a strong Albanian lobby, and surprise, surprise, they supported expanded rights for Albanians in Macedonia.... However, I would love to see the rights Albanians enjoy in R. Makedonija be afforded to our brothers in Egej, Pirin, Golo Brdo... I am proud of the humanity that Macedonia has shown to its minorities, unlike Serbia, Albania/Kosovo, Bulgaria, and Greece.

"Greece alone vetoed Macedonia’s NATO membership at the 2008 NATO Bucharest Summit because the “name dispute” had not been resolved to its satisfaction. The veto came despite Greece’s treaty obligation to Macedonia that it would not use the “name dispute” to impede Macedonia’s accession to NATO and the fact that Macedonia had met all NATO membership criteria. The Greek veto and the subsequent Greek threat to veto Macedonia’s EU integration, have strained Greek-Macedonian relations. Macedonia nevertheless remains determined to take its place within NATO andis committed to resolving the bilateral 'name dispute'”.

> And? There's nothing to respond to here, it just a statement of fact.

"In past Congresses, resolutions were proposed that inaccurately portrayed Macedonia as unwilling to resolve the “name dispute” and that erroneously referred to Macedonia as the “The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” or “FYROM”.

> Macedonian governments have often stated this "willing to resolve the dispute" language, without clearly defining what that means, and this is aggravating. Greece does not budge on its demands that must Macedonia change its name, among other ridiculous demands, and so, no resolution to the argument has been possible.

...The Prime Minister’s threat shows that Macedonia, or any other nation, cannot rely on the Hellenic Republic to honour its treaty obligations as this threat violates the 1995 Interim Agreement between the two nations...

> And? This is a statement of fact.

...Macedonia changed its flag, amended its constitution, and accepted the use of the provisional reference all pursuant to the Interim Agreement and has fully abided by such agreement...

> Unfortunately, all of that is true; a statement of fact.

...The United Macedonian Diaspora urges Greece to end its diplomatic blackmail and abide by the rules to which it agreed to in the Interim Agreement...

> Yes, Greece got what it wanted in that document, but then failed to live up to its end of the bargain, which is to not impede Macedonia's membership in international organizations. They are in violation of the agreement, which is a fact.

The Macedonian government has the constitutional and legitimate right to negotiate in our name for the name of our state because the Macedonian citizens elected them constitutionally and legitimately, are you denying this?

This very old quote is an opinion on the legality of democratically elected governments to enter into negotiations on behalf of the citizens that elected them. For the government to actually change the name of the state is also technically legal, although, in my opinion, and also according to UMD policy, it would clearly not be acceptable. The use of the word "legitimate" here is a poor choice because it can easily be misinterpreted, but it clearly does NOT mean to say that Greece's position is legitimate, or that for Macedonia to change its name is ethically or morally legitimate.

I was not going to bother replying to Jordan Gruev's e-mail but I had to. Who is this Macedonian Liberation Movement? What is their mission statement? Who are they to declare Branko Crvenkovski and his government illegitimate?

> I have never heard of the MLM. I have never heard of any rationale to declare Crvenkovski's SDS government illegitimate, in the sense of being illegal. Crvenkovski was legally elected by the voters of Macedonia.

Metodija Koloski, president of the United Macedonian Diaspora, an international advocacy organization, maintained that Greece's stance has been unreasonable. He accused Menendez of refusing to meet with Macedonian-Americans from New Jersey, taking a narrow one-sided view, and arbitrarily blocking Reeker's confirmation. Koloski speculated that Menendez was seeking to win Greek-American votes and campaign contributions.

> There no question that Robert Menendez is one of the most anti-Macedonian Congressmen in Washington, a real pawn of the Greek lobby. At the time, he was blocking Reeker's appointment arbitrarily, in order to punish President Bush for recognizing Macedonia by its constitutional name in 2004. As it turns out, Reeker is a jackass in his own right, despite that fact that he was a Republican appointment, and his recent comments have been very disappointing, especially since Obama has moved in to the White House.


If all of these quotes are true and accurate, then there are a couple instances where the wording wasn't the best, but there's certainly nothing to apologize for, and nothing to indicate the conspiracy theories of the anti-UMD dingo brigade.

All in all, Vangelovski's list of UMD misdeeds is incredibly mundane, repetitive and willfully misconstrued in his vindictive little red comments. I guess that's what happens when a man has his ego bruised... he joins another organization, and does his best to orient that organization as a "rival" to the one he was previously an important part of... instead of doing the right thing, and seeking for his new organization to be UMD's partner.

Vangelovski's hope is that UMD will one day be destroyed, a hope that he shares with Greeks everywhere, especially the Greek lobby in Washington. Of course, he could care less about the harm it would do to the Macedonian Cause, especially with respect to maintaining a strong presence in Washington, where many decisions of great importance to Macedonia and the Balkan region in general get made every day. To me, that all adds up to Vangelovski putting his personal vendettas ahead of Macedonia's interests.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Not that you care but I'll tell you what many forum readers are telling me. It's no secret that there is a handful of people who's mission is to strictly reply on behalf of ALL UMD members using alias names without membership approval. Now, at no point in time has the UMD ever posted many of their forum replies directly to their website and this has many older members thinking about doing other things in the future - no leadership or direction as it pertains to the Macedonians who call diaspora their home. Today, 95% of your work relates to the USA and Macedonian Governments and this will be a serious problem in Diaspora.

Name ANY Macedonian organization that's main focus is outside of their own region? United Macedonians? MPO?

Human Rights? Yes, because we have Human Rights where we live and that's their MISSION nothing else.

[indigen]

Can you stand to have your half-baked ideas be challenged for a change, RTG? Or do you prefer to silence those who dare to disagree with you? Hey, it's your website... you can ban me any time you like, though if you do, it just proves my point.

The POT (Umdovci) calling someone else half-baked! :-)

Ah, Risto, you are really starting to disappoint me now, I expected more from you. All you can do is reply with more and more intentional misinformation.

The POT (Umdovci) accusing someone else of "All you can do is reply with more and more intentional misinformation." :-)

Incidentally, there are no parts of that linked statement that qualify as bullshit in my mind or in the mind of any patriotic Macedonian. I agree with it completely and I think it is very well put.

So now you "fully" know what is in the mind of any (and all) patriotic Macedonian? I doubt you know who qualifies to be regarded as a patriotic Macedonian and it certainly is NOT, IMO, UmdOvci! :-)

If you truly think that the only way to advance the Macedonian Cause is to tear down your brothers in America and elsewhere, your brothers who are actually fighting to benefit the Macedonian Cause, mnogu si zgresen.

What are they fighting for when they sing praises to the Ramkovist traitors and praise the end result - multi, multi-ethnic non-Macedonian Ramkovist Macedonia - as something exemplary on the world stage and in need of deference and upholding? What do IZRODI like that deserve? I would tell you but it might bring the law down on me and thus I leave it to the imagination of all right-thinking patriots with a bit of fire in their belly to work it out for themselves.

The Macedonian diaspora has endured that kind of regressive thinking for far far too long, and what you're sellin', they ain't buyin', simple as that.

The POT again telling someone else that what they are selling is not being bought! :-)

You are right, the "DIASPORA" Macedonians, in the main, are NOT buying into UmdOvci's (and other's) VASSAL ideology! And, IME, UmdOvci are the support group of the Vassals in Skopje and their Imperial puppet masters in Washington.

UMD Policy on the Ohrid Framework Agreement

[Makedonska_Kafana]

How these morons believe they're helping the UMD in ANYWAY is beyond belief.

[Phoenix]

The UMD apologists continue on the same goat worn path to nowhere, one after another they tread this lonely path to oblivion and completely fail to recognise the futility of the journey.

The latest to make the trip, our friend 'stravdziger', who by all accounts has more than just a few proverbial screws loose...

These fools remind me of the simple audience mesmerized by the tele-evangelist and his promises of salvation, where the 'good word' is lapped up in a ravenous feeding frenzy...

The UMD continues to rack-up bullshit moments.
A dynamic and ever shifting policy regarding the name issue,
an almost total silence in regards to the Ohrid Agreement and Interim Accord,
a shameless propensity to support Macedonia's involvement in the NATO war in Afghanistan,
the embarrassment of aligning itself with the pro-Bulgar MPO
and a moment of total 'Meto Madness' when he promoted the DC cupcake sisters as 'Macedonians', only for them to bare their 'greek' arses on American television weeks later...

Its this pile of shit that stinks, its there for everyone to see, nobody should be fooled by photo opportunities, junkets to Turkish bath-houses, cocktail parties, and awards named in the honour of our greatest historical figures given to political prostitutes because they did what was morally the only thing to do...

This is UMD from the outsiders perpective, an ever growing pile of shit. This is what we see and what disappoints us in the "diaspora", sadly those closest to UMD are blind to see the cracks and the failures, content to tread the goat path up the mountain wearing the stupid smile of self importance on the journey.

[Risto the Great]

Can you stand to have your half-baked ideas be challenged for a change, RTG? Or do you prefer to silence those who dare to disagree with you? Hey, it's your website... you can ban me any time you like, though if you do, it just proves my point.

Are you kidding me? I would never delete an opportunity to show the world what Macedonian sellouts look like. This isn't going anywhere. You do not know anything about my ideas. If (in your mind) they are half baked it is because you have not spent long enough time here to discern quality baking from the artificially flavoured UMD stuff. If we are going to keep using analogies, we are real coffee and you are Starbucks.

Ah, Risto, you are really starting to disappoint me now, I expected more from you. All you can do is reply with more and more intentional misinformation.

You know damn well that I have never seen that thread until now, and that is not at all what I'd been referring to previously. To suggest that is simply a LIE.

Incidentally, there are no parts of that linked statement that qualify as bullshit in my mind or in the mind of any patriotic Macedonian. I agree with it completely and I think it is very well put.

Unfortunately, on a day to day basis, loyalists to a particular organization frequent this website and behave in a way that systematically undermines those well-stated goals... and over what? 30 pieces of silver?

If you truly think that the only way to advance the Macedonian Cause is to tear down your brothers in America and elsewhere, your brothers who are actually fighting to benefit the Macedonian Cause, mnogu si zgresen. The Macedonian diaspora has endured that kind of regressive thinking for far far too long, and what you're sellin', they ain't buyin', simple as that.

How am I to know "damn well" that you simply came here to blindly defend the UMD without even taking a moment to consider the issues that are of extreme importance to Macedonians in the Diaspora. Many of these issues already thoroughly discussed here. As you said, it is indeed "only a fucking website". Admittedly it single-handedly is the reference site for Macedonian matters on history and ideology. Smart Macedonians have come to learn that this place can be of great benefit to them. Much of this stems from key concepts such as integrity and honesty. The rest comes from a commitment to the Macedonian Cause.

I wish I could take comfort that you like the Macedonian Cause as defined here. But the problem is you cannot see how the Cause is being shat on by UMD when it talks of Democratic Macedonians and espouses the merits of the Ohrid Agreement amongst other acts of stupidity.

Why don't you ask UMD what they disagree with in the Macedonian Cause. Then ask them why they have done actions which depart from the sound ideology contained therein.

I tell you what ... if we choose to start sellin' ... you will eat your words.