United Macedonia Diaspora

[Buktop]

Wow, it is pretty convenient to split the USA into various Governments. Kind of like the "good cop bad cop routine". Australia did not influence Macedonia to lose its sovereignty. Nor did it assist the enemy during the 2001 war. Go on, admit it. The USA is no friend of Macedonia. The fact that it did "nice things" (which I still doubt) after destroying its sovereignty sounds like token gestures to me.

Convenient? What is so convenient about it? There are two parties here, with two separate agendas, one happens to be pro-Maco the other pro-Greek, which one do you think I support, and why do you think I would choose to divide the negative and positive actions taken by the US towards Macedonia? For the same reason that you Aussies always talk about which political policy would recognize Macedonians.

So how bad do you think Clinton was for Macedonia and can Macedonia ever recover with a mindset like yours? Be honest.

Clinton's America was terrible, not only did his administration cause the current global economic crisis, but his administration was also solely responsible for Bosnia, Kosovo, and the Macedonian conflicts.

What is my mindset exactly Risto?

Do I think we'll recover? Of course I do.

[Risto the Great]

Convenient? What is so convenient about it? There are two parties here, with two separate agendas, one happens to be pro-Maco the other pro-Greek, which one do you think I support, and why do you think I would choose to divide the negative and positive actions taken by the US towards Macedonia? For the same reason that you Aussies always talk about which political policy would recognize Macedonians.

Clinton's America was terrible, not only did his administration cause the current global economic crisis, but his administration was also solely responsible for Bosnia, Kosovo, and the Macedonian conflicts.

What is my mindset exactly Risto?

Do I think we'll recover? Of course I do.

Thanks for the clarification. It was a convenient answer because it supports the argument that the USA is "awesome except for when it isn't" if I understood your text above. Given that USA was "terrible" under Clinton, what has the current/subsequent governments done to fix the mess that was created? In other words, surely by fixing nothing since Clinton, the USA is enjoying the fruits of its rape and carnage. Why would USA even need to inflict anything else on Macedonia given the position it has placed it in?

Which USA party is pro-Macedonian? Why?

Your mindset is based on a naive belief that USA is automatically good for Macedonia and that the EU is automatically good for Macedonia. Which is the UMD mindset. You have recently departed from UMD in the sense that you are still pro-negotiation and they are not (supposedly), but that will soon resolve itself. Naturally you will deny all of my assumptions about you.

How do you think Macedonia will recover? Let me put the Meto cap on and guess .... Join the organisations (EU, NATO etc.) then have our position of power within them ... something like that???


P.S. Just in case you forget, the USA did indeed do terrible things to Macedonia. You say it was Clinton. I say it was the USA. I think many normal people would agree with me. They might agree with you if you can prove the USA has done things to wind back the devastation they unleashed on Macedonia previously. Feel free to provide any evidence thereof.

[Mikail]

Buktop, spend a couple of years out of the US and you'll know what we're talking about. Apart from singing the Star Spangled Banner every day at school, students there know little else about anything else.

It's understandable why you are so protective of Uncle Sam..... you take the same approach with UMetoD.

Never mind. One day you'll learn there is more to things than narrow minded American views.

Before you get set to jump down my throat I will add, I have met many expat Yanks over here and by there own admission, they have said to me what I stated above, so I'm not making this up.

[julie]

the world and the universe in its entirety is Uncle Sam to them Mikail, and as you said never mind. The biased journalism and indoctrination happens from a very young age, they dont see this unless they spend some time away as you said.
My girlfriend lived and worked there for 2 years and said they are arrogant and self centred, only because they cant see past Uncle Sam and how wonderful and supreme they are.
My great uncle, my mums' mum brother, bog da go prosti, came out each year to Australia, and lived in Syracuse in New York, he would tell us how they percieved themselves as supreme beings, above anyone else, and they had the right to dominate and control , which is why he lived coming out from there to us "kenguri" who he adored and loved the country here

[Prolet]

Aleksandrov, Two state Premiers have publicly called us Slav Macedonian and History Thieves i dont care about documentation this is more then enough for me. I was here when Gruevski came and that Labor representative didnt even say Republic of Macedonia once, all we heard was "your country" like we are some kind of Aliens, the fact that they arnt even bothered to build an Australian Embassy in Skopje also says alot, our citizens have a 5 hour drive to Belgrade just to get a Visa for Australia.

Mikail, Do you know that only 1/4 of American Citizens have a passport? They dont travel much abroad thats for sure.

[indigen]

Which USA party is pro-Macedonian? Why?

P.S. Just in case you forget, the USA did indeed do terrible things to Macedonia. You say it was Clinton. I say it was the USA. I think many normal people would agree with me. They might agree with you if you can prove the USA has done things to wind back the devastation they unleashed on Macedonia previously. Feel free to provide any evidence thereof.

For the sake of clarification, I would like to point out that it was during US Republican rule (George Bush's first term started in early 2001) that the "Ramkoven dogovor" (aka "Framework Agreement") was IMPOSED upon Macedonia and when Macedonians lost their state. If BT or UMDovci think that the US Republicans are "our friends", then they have more than a few screws loose, IMHO!


Group "Happy Snapshot" from the signing of the treasonous "Ramkoven dogovor" in August 2001.

[Phoenix]

Mikail, Do you know that only 1/4 of American Citizens have a passport? They dont travel much abroad thats for sure.

Are you sure about that statistic Prolet, I think it could be significantly lower than that...

here's something interesting

http://www.gyford.com/phil/writing/2003/01/31/how_many_america.php

[julie]

they are their friends Indigen, for their own self serving aspirations, nothing more, my friend

[aleksandrov]

Aleksandrov, Two state Premiers have publicly called us Slav Macedonian and History Thieves i dont care about documentation this is more then enough for me. ...

You should care about the distinction between two individuals, even if each of them was at some time a State Premier, and the Commonwealth of Australia. It's pretty huge.

[indigen]

they are their friends Indigen, for their own self serving aspirations, nothing more, my friend

That may be so, Julie, but these sly dudes have been pushing this line about the "bad Dems" vs "good Republicans" for some time and no one has pointed out the obvious - that the "good Republicans" have caused the most damage against Macedonia via imposition and implementation of the "Ramkoven dogovor"!!!



The above is just one picture at hand of the June 2001 protest following the busing out of the UCK terrorist from Arachinovo, together with their US military advisors/trainers.




YouTube - Makedonija 2001 - Bitkata za aracinovo Eve ja vistinata

Reposting a youtube clip of the Arachinovo events of 2001 originally posted by "Homer Makedonski" on page 1 of this thread.

NB: It is recommended people read the start of this thread, if not all of it, instead of only reading tail-end postings which may go off-topic.

[aleksandrov]

Here's something else, which I've posted several times in the past, which goes to the Bush administration's role in Macedonia and the agenda behind its recognition of the 'constitutional' name:

http://www.antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=3973

[Risto the Great]

Here's something else, which I've posted several times in the past, which goes to the Bush administration's role in Macedonia and the agenda behind its recognition of the 'constitutional' name:

http://www.antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=3973

Yeah, thanks USA

[UMDiaspora.org]

In response to Vangelovski's question:

Does this mean that UMD rejects the Interim Accord and considers it illegitimate and invalid? And if so, how can Greece "violate" an Accord that is illegitimate and invalid? Or, does UMD still support the Interim Accord and is this just another UMD ploy to save face as a result of immense public pressure?

------------

UMD's response:

Of course it is illegal! But it is reality, 15 years later. Greece violated it by blocking Macedonia's membership into NATO. This is reality. UMD is only stating a reality. Now the illegality of the Interim Accord is a different story and UMD strongly agrees with you, but who is going to stand up for you at the UN and claim it was illegal and the UN should have never allowed it? Of course, they shouldn't have allowed it but they did, and Macedonia 15 years later khe se buni. Ziti se! Ako se bunese ke se bunese 15 godini unapred.

Didn't the Macedonian government sign this illegal document? Yes! Isn't the current Macedonian government adhering to this illegal document? Yes! Didn't the Macedonian government use as its main argument to file a lawsuit against Greece that Greece violated Article 11 of this illegal government? Yes! Isn't there a current lawsuit against Greece in the International Court of Justice because of this illegal document? Yes! NATO was the perfect opportunity to exit the negotiations at the UN and call for re-admission into the UN as Republic of Macedonia because Greece violated Article 11 of the illegal document. What did the Macedonian government do? Nothing! Wage a lawsuit.

Vangelovski, you are such a genius about the illegal document. Re-read it and tell us what Article 23 Point 2 says. What did the Macedonian government do? Nothing!!

So, how UMD is to blame befalls us. Another attempt to tarnish UMD's image Vangelovski, but we assure you it is not tarnishing our image.

Instead of putting blame on UMD or others for the mistakes of the Macedonian government, let's figure out a genius way to get Macedonia out of this mess and help it become a more socio-economically stable country, and get it back to being a role model in the Balkans on lot of fronts.

[Vangelovski]

Meto,

The Interim Accord is NOT a "reality" that UMD needs to accept. In fact, its a "reality" that UMD needs to actively work AGAINST. If UMD accepts this as "reality", which you clearly have just stated it does, then what is the point of the organisation other than to act as a mouthpiece for the vassal politicians of the Macedonian Government?

As usual, you have completey MISUNDERSTOOD what the ICJ action is about, what the specific articles of Interim Accord you have cited are about and the need for ACTIVE opposition to the Accord. Alternatively, you may be malisiously misrepresenting them in an attempt to bring diaspora opinion into line with the vassal Macedonian Governemt.

Noone EVER stated that UMD was to blame for the Accord being "signed", but UMD is definately COMPLIANT in its continued existence, acting as a mouthpiece for our vassal politicians in an attempt to convince the diaspora to accept it as "reality". It is clear now that your call for name negotiations to cease was nothing but a stunt, another tampering around the edges without rejecting the substance of Accord that our oppressors use to negate our freedom.

[UMDiaspora.org]

Again you have misinterrupted our statements. Isn't a call for ceasing negotiations in actuality calling for an end to the Interim Accord? Absolutely yes.

Can you show us what Article 23 Point of the Interim Accord says? Why hasn't this been done?