United Macedonia Diaspora

[makedonche]

Vangelovski - since debating you is considered treason and in your medical opinion, your opponent, MVB is insane - I just want to say this. I suggest you make your message as public as possible. I hope that you are promoting your ideology somewhere else other then the confines of a forum where a handful of loyalists will read it. Call your relatives in RoM, get meetings with politicians - fund people who can and get your message out there. Argeeing with each other here is wonderful but the real battle is actual not existential. We need more action and less talk.

Mr Brandy
Yes you are correct.."we need more action"... We also need more talk, we also need the correct actions based on a unified approach with the ability of all Macedonians to contribute. Of what value is something if it is fundamenatlly flawed? of what value is idealogy or actions which negate/dilute our identity, of what value are actions which are not the view of the collective or in line with the Macedonian Cause - let me tell you, they are of no value and only serve to weaken our resolve and diminish our right to self determination and equal human rights. I'ts all fine and well to forge ahead with actions as long as there is accountability and acceptance of responsibility for those actions.

[Vangelovski]

Argeeing with each other here is wonderful but the real battle is actual not existential. We need more action and less talk.

Do you know what existential means in this context? It means a direct threat to our existence. It means the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreements are a direct attack on the existence of a Macedonian state. It means the loss of our sovereingty, identity and human rights. It means ceasing to exist as Macedonians. How much more "actual" do you want it to get?

If you want a sugarcoated pat on the back for everyone who defends these existential threats to the Macedonian people, you may feel more comfortable at Maknews.

[Risto the Great]

Hi Risto,
Wow it seems like I've got everyone's attention!
I'll try my best to address your points in a way that you find satisfactory.

We always enjoy it when the UMD sends another executive member in under the guise of an impartial Macedonian member. I hope you address my points in a way that is truthful rather than a way that pleases me.

They are a pro-Macedonian advocacy group and charity - sorry, it seems rather clear to me.

I disagree. You will see why further on in this text.

I've seen the Youtubes, and I've seen the so-called evidence related to this, and I think its pretty shaky. No one is perfect, and I'm sure there are things any leader of any organization has said, who then later looked back and thought, I wish I had said that differently or I wish I had been more clear and to the point. As far as what Meto specifically said or didn't say, I will leave it up to him to answer you or not answer you. As I've stated many times before, I am here as an individual, and the views that I express are my own.

Regardless of this ongoing issue, I still don't see UMD as "anti-Macedonian" by any stretch, and in case you are wondering, no, I do not advocate any name change whatsoever, and neither do the members or leadership of UMD.

Back in the early days when I was rallying for potential members to join the UMD I was shocked with the realisation that EU/NATO entry was so important to the UMD that even modified names were considered reasonable for this purpose. When seeking clarification, it was never addressed. Ever.

If a leader of an organisation makes a mistake and confesses to it, there may be hope. If he does not address it in a convincing manner .... and Mark my words, this is the only thing "shaky" in this entire process, then it looks like like he is still harbouring a desire to continue with this folly.

Like any leader, I am sure he faces many struggles, but here do you mean, the approach of advocating EU and NATO membership? If so, I think this approach is in keeping with the views of UMD members, a large portion of the Macedonian diaspora community and a majority of RoM citizens as well. If it weren't, I can't see why he would advocate it - unless of course you feel he is some kind of "spiun" along with the rest of UMD, which is something I feel has no credibility whatsoever. Regarding the negotiations, UMD hasn't come out strongly against them yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if this changed. I don't know if the percentages are exactly as expressed by your straw poll, but I do sense a rising frustration with the negotiations and the entire process. While many still do not see it as something which approaches "evil" or "treachery" as has been suggested on this forum, there is still strong dissatisfaction with the process even by those who are now willing to completely abandon it. It's not a black and white issue - its more a question of when do we cut them off for maximum benefit, and what are the next steps after, meri tri pati pa seci. I will also tell you that various DPMNE politicians were present at the Toronto conference, such as A. Nikolovski, and he got a very rough ride from UMD membership for the government's perceived ambiguity about the name, an ambiguity that UMD does not promote.

All reasonable points. But it took the UMD well over a year since "the mistake that never happened" to make a public declaration that the name is important. Even though Meto did try to justify the mistake that never happened as recently as his visit to Australia. We have a political party in Australia that has a mantra of "keeping the bastards honest". Can you see how the outside pressure from places like this might be beneficial for an organisation that is still finding its feet and coming off a very shaky start?

The UMD has not come out strongly against much of anything. The Diaspora often talks about coming out strongly about many Macedonian issues that are held dear to them. So if an organisation that purports to represent the Diaspora is not doing what the Diaspora wants, then it is at best redundant.

You talk of a rising frustration in relation to the negotiations. If I sit any member of the Diaspora down and go through a logical progression of the negotiation process. I will learn very quickly that there can be no negotiation to my identity. I gave Meto some very good advice, ... ask the Diaspora if ever you are not sure.

You appear to be a firm EU advocate. Are you a firm advocate of the EU Parliament resolutions? Let us see in a few paragraphs time.

It is clear in my mind that the UMD is pro-negotiations. You have made this abundantly clear and if you think some members of the Diaspora are all for that, then you have found your target market. Can I suggest some future advertisements:

The UMD is Pro-negotiations.

You can do this until you are no longer are pro-negotiations I suppose. I am not sure whether you will have really changed your mind though, so I might hold off renewing my membership for another 100 years just to be sure.

The wording of this EU recommendation is fairly vague to me, allowing for a various ways for the government to wiggle out of the scenario that you envisage, where Albanian fiefdoms pop up and abuse the Macedonians in their own country or attempt to break away by force. However, if I were writing this, I would add an extra element of a double-standard / inconsistency on part of the EU, since the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece enjoys no such regional benefits, and don't even enjoy being officially recognized. Macedonia needs to negotiate with EU on this basis, affording minority benefits in accordance with progress in Greece for our minority, which so far has been close to nil. If Brussels comes back with something along the lines of "well that's out of the question", then Macedonia can diplomatically use that for further negotiation. Here is the biggest failing of Macedonian foreign policy, I would argue; a reluctance to mention the ethnic minorities in EU countries that don't enjoy anything near what the minorities in RoM get.

We agree. Please get the UMD to write a letter. Add that bit on the end of my bit.

This is the major sticking point that virtually guarantees stalemate, the phrase "mutually acceptable". All Greece has to do is continue to turn down RoM, and there will be no progress. Here the only hope is for Europe to wake up and stop being beholden to Greece's hostile foreign policy. The current outlook for that happening is not optimistic.

This is what I am talking about. The UMD's only hope is that Europe wakes up .... and here we have the European Parliament slapping you across the face with the fact that it is fully awake and fully making demands to Macedonia at the same time. These are parliament resolutions. At what point do you think there will be a resolution that says they were wrong about their previous resolutions?

Forcing a name change from the outside is impossible; foreign countries can legally or illegally withdraw recognition, initiate sanctions, etc., so any forcing of this issue would be via indirect punitive measures. Ultimately, however, the only ones who can try to actually change the country's name is RoM leadership, and if they try to do this, the Diaspora must do everything in its power to stop them, because it would be a huge mistake and highly unethical.

We agree. So why the Democratic Macedonia bullshit? Why negotiate?

I don't see that Macedonia is being singled out in this case, it says: "notes with concern the use of historical arguments in the current debate, including the recent phenomenon of so-called "antiquisation", which is liable to increase tensions with neighbours and create new internal divisions" - That sounds like it applies to Greece as well... if that's not how it was intended, then our negotiators should turn it around on the Greeks because they do this to the extreme.

I am positive Macedonia is being singled out and the "antiquisation" reference is the major factor.

Hmm... Ok, well of course any human has the right to debate and express themselves about history or other topics, and humans who work for states as negotiators are no different. But I really think the debate has nothing to do with Aleksandar Veliki - it has to do with a country that can't come to terms with the 21st century, can't come to terms with the multiplicity of ethnic minorities in its territory, and is lashing out at its neighbor in desperation. More recent history from the early 1900s to the Greek Civil War, the Deca Begalci, the reparations... these are historical areas which are relevant to any agreement between these two countries today.

So you are in the same boat as Mitrevski then. He suggested something similar, that the historical stuff is irrelevant and makes us look too nationalistic or something. I can find the correspondence for you but am sure it went along those lines.

The only claim Greece has to Macedonia is a tenuous link to ancient Macedonia. Why not educate these EU buffoons? When esteemed historians cannot describe with confidence the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, what makes the EU or Greece for that matter any better qualified?

Ok... I feel you here Risto, but I wonder if getting too much into the emotional dimension makes this part stronger or weaker. I would suggest a toning down... just talk about the facts, which are that Greece is obviously negotiating in bad faith, and that they are breaking their own rules. I don't object to how it is written, of course, but I think the more dispassionate tone earlier was great.

Really?

Macedonians are more than justified in being offended with attacks on their identity given the ongoing attempts by consecutive Governments of Greece to negate and re-define them. The European Parliament should exercise caution in encouraging Greece to remain in such a position of belligerence.

What part is "emotional" here? It is good advice and very representative of the Macedonian Diaspora.

" a common understanding of history " ? < I don't like the sound of that at all.

Write a letter.

This call must apply to Greece equally, it is unfair for it to be aimed at RoM only.

This adds weight to my earlier interpretation of the fact that the EU Parliament is aiming its attack squarely on Macedonia with the hope that it folds in the negotiation/compromise process. You know I am right.

I recommend that RoM maintain an open communication with these powerful neighbors, try not to burn bridges, but in the end, only enter the EU on our terms. If that's not possible, and it very well may not be, then we need to take an alternative path. I am not so concerned about the German hegemony issue that you bring up. Right now, it is true that Greece is being severely punished for its fraud against the EU, but they have no one to blame but themselves. Overall, I think Macedonia has more power in the EU than outside of it.

Please tell me what "our terms" are and why the UMD is not ripping new arseholes demanding these terms? Do you get it yet? The UMD simply tries to avoid offending anybody and is a warm friendly mouthpiece of the Macedonian Government in the Diaspora. What a waste of time, many of us can read Macedonian, we may as well read about our spectacular weakness directly from the Government.

And somehow I doubt that a successful plan involves charging towers on white horses.

If only we had a modern day Delcev.

I know you tried it already with Mitreski and it failed. But, let me suggest that you send your letter to me by email:
[email protected]

Include with your email anything else you feel is relevant; your previous communications with Mitreski, how you would like to see the letter used, etc.

The tempers have been flaring for so long; let me act as a kind of messenger for you.

I hope you take me up on my offer. The way I see it, it is a win-win for the MTO. If this idea succeeds, then it represents one small baby step towards establishing some kind trust with UMD. If this fails, then you will have another reason to harp on UMD, more arrows for your quiver... win-win.

Give it a try, RTG. I have to believe that there is a way for the MTO and the UMD to begin a peace process of some kind, or at least a ceasefire. Maybe this could be the first step?

I look forward to hearing from you.

It is all here on this forum. It is available for any Macedonians aligned with the Macedonian Cause to use .... as is all the information on this website.

Have a listen to the warm welcome I gave Meto in Adelaide. I made it clear that a worldwide organisation that represents the will of the Macedonian Diaspora is a wonderful thing. I have since realised that it may be an impossibility and that many organisations with common goals can achieve the same if not more.

What disturbs me Mark is that you appear to not even know about the EU Parliament resolutions yet are still keen on EU entry. If you think coming into a room full of MTO members is bad, think about what having a couple of drinks with EU Parliamentarians would be like.

[Prolet]

If only we had a modern day Delcev.

Risto, What about the Great Metodija Andonov Chento who pushed for the Solunski Front?

[makedonche]

Risto, What about the Great Metodija Andonov Chento who pushed for the Solunski Front?

Proletche
Are you taking any drugs?

[Prolet]

Makedonche, It was Chento's idea to push for the Solunski front, why do you think he was exiled by the Yugoslavs?

Izlezi momche pravo na terasa,
da se vide Gocevata rasa,
krenete race visoko gore,
nashe ke bide i Solunsko Pole.
Ale Ale

[makedonche]

Makedonche, It was Chento's idea to push for the Solunski front, why do you think he was exiled by the Yugoslavs?

Izlezi momche pravo na terasa,
da se vide Gocevata rasa,
krenete race visoko gore,
nashe ke bide i Solunsko Pole.
Ale Ale

Proletche
Answer my question please - "are you taking any drugs"?

[Prolet]

Makedonche, Hell no why would you ask such a thing?

We are talking about the liberation of Solun here and Chento is the perfect person to mention here.

[makedonche]

Makedonche, Hell no why would you ask such a thing?

We are talking about the liberation of Solun here and Chento is the perfect person to mention here.

Proletche
Spolaij Ti for your answer, I don't disagree about Chento, however I think RTG was alluding to someone who could ride into Solun on an Arabian steed, today/current tense.

Your reponse to RTG didn't make sense to me that is why I asked if you were taking drugs, I thought your cognitive process was being undermined by hallucinogens!

[Soldier of Macedon]

So this new guy is actually Mark Branov of the UMD? Lol, unbelievable....no wonder you're defending every stinking and treacherous move that the UMD have ever made.

[Prolet]

SOM, He's already said that its not him, he is not part of the UMD board.

[Vangelovski]

SOM, He's already said that its not him, he is not part of the UMD board.

That LIE just adds to his lack of credibility, don't you think Prolet?

Judging from the use of standard UMD phrases and disclaimers, Makedonska Kafana's confirmation that Mark Branov is a member of Maknews, and the similarity between some of MVB's and Mark Branov's own writing/ideas from UMD Voice, I'm 99.9% sure the MVB is Mark Branov.

[Prolet]

Vangelovski, I personally asked him on the Maknews thread and he said it wasnt him. How can you be so sure that its him? You know that UMD Director Stojanche Nikolov is an active poster on the Maknews forum, do you want me to ask him to come on this forum for a debate?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Prolet, you don't have a clue who this person is yet you have taken his garbage at face value, ignorance won't score you any points, so if you don't know what you're talking about then stay out of this particular debate. He is trying to give the impression of an 'objective' outsider, but the emotion and knee-jerk behaviour he has exhibited thus far is an unfortunate give away for him.

Perhaps the next time Mark enters under the disguise of an UMD stooge as opposed to an UMD board member (not sure if there is much difference), he can choose a username that doesn't consist of a 3 letter acronym that represents his actual name.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski, I personally asked him on the Maknews thread and he said it wasnt him. How can you be so sure that its him? You know that UMD Director Stojanche Nikolov is an active poster on the Maknews forum, do you want me to ask him to come on this forum for a debate?

Prolet,

Reread my post. Also, read SoM's post again - it contains a further clue.

MV Branov, was particularly upset on Maknews when I picked up his poor journalistic/critical thinking skills in UMD Voice:

In UMD's newest addition of 'UMD Voice', they interviewed an "expert" on Macedonian affairs - Carlos Flores Juberias. Who is he? Some professor of comparative law in Madrid.

Carlos tells UMD that Macedonia did a fantastic job in amending its constitution to appease the terrorists in 2001 and thereby providing ‘collective rights’ to the Albanians:

“As a legal scholar, I am quite eager to point out that Macedonia was able to pass a rather inclusive constitutional text back in 1991, and that Macedonian leaders of all parties and ethnic communities proved to be smart enough – and humble enough – to introduce the necessary changes in 2001, in order to make it even more consensual and inclusive, and therefore more acceptable for everyone”.

However, when asked about ‘collective rights' for Macedonians in Greece, he responded quite differently:

“I believe that a generous, and fully guaranteed recognition of individual freedoms - including religious freedom, freedom of speech, the right to express yourself in your mother tongue, freedom of assembly and association, and freedom of the press - should be counted first, rather than this notion of “collective rights.” When individual rights are guaranteed, it also provides the sufficient margin of liberty for people to engage in collective action as well, based on a common ethnic identity, a common language or a common set of religious beliefs. EU member states such as Greece and Bulgaria should fully guarantee individual rights to all of their citizens, regardless of their ethnic background”.

How did UMD respond? They promoted this contradictory garbage in their official publication without question.

Through this, can we gather that UMD supports collective rights in Macedonia and not in Greece? Does UMD apply one standard for the rest of the world and another flawed standard for Macedonia? Why was it such a virtue for Macedonia to appease terrorists with 'collective rights' when no other EU country would dream of providing the same for ordinary law abiding citizens?

http://umdiaspora.org/UMDVoice/2010S...Spring2010.pdf