United Macedonia Diaspora

[Prolet]

I got a glimpse of that 1 deleted post made by you MVB.
It was not breathtaking and you are making much more of it than it was. If we had known it was a UMD executive member's post, we might have had a real red hot go at it. But we just figured it was Meto or a mate of his posting some pro UMD dribble.

Risto, Do you recall what was said?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Can I just state again, for the 100th time, that this joker's post had no content. It consisted of one or two lines at the very most, and went something like the below:

"I can't believe all this crap I am reading about all of you anti-UMD posters, what have you done for the community, the UMD have achieved so much, bla, bla, bla......"

Even that above does it more justice than it should. There was nothing in his post, this individual is merely upset that his maiden post (rant) was deleted and he was advised to post it in the appropriate thread. It's being made out to be some sort of "big revelation", it wasn't, don't give this joker undue credit for nothing. If there was a shred of normality in his post, or if it was anything more than a few lines of idiocy, I would have merged it to this thread.

That's as simple as it is. Does anybody require a further explanation? I couldn't care less who he is or what he represents, everybody can have their say here, but when someone arrives a year after a discussion was initiated, and does exactly the opposite of what most people here were requesting (to keep the UMD dribble in one thread), I will act on it accordingly. And I did.

[Soldier of Macedon]

mvb9999, you want to make yourself useful since you signed up here? Address the below:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3485

Once you can do that and have caught up, then ramble. Until then, you can keep up with your dribble.

[Risto the Great]

Let me ask you a question RTG: Other than the fact that you presumably disagree with UMD's pro-EU/NATO stance (correct me if I'm wrong), do you feel betrayed by the UMD? Do you feel that UMD lead you to believe A, and then obviously did B, therefore leading you to not trust them?

Good question. Of course I feel betrayed. They have tried to be all things to all people so much so that it has never been clear what they in fact are. I feel that they NEVER adequately explained why their leader advocated a name change. I feel that their leader struggles to come to terms with this failure in his approach and has never dealt with it in a suitable fashion. To see the hollow UMD statements about never changing the name of Macedonia and then justifications as recent as a few months ago as to why it might not be so bad. Well, what can I say, was your leader speaking on behalf of the UMD again? I will assume so.

If you still have the letter, I would love to see it.

Here is the link to the suggested wording that the UMD is still free to use:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2929

Let me know where you depart from the MTO with respect to the European Parliament response. Seriously how could the UMD do anything but denounce the EU charade if they were self respecting Macedonians?

My feeling on the EU is that it is essentially a country club, and that only members have any sort of pull. I feel that the EU's pro-Greek stance on Macedonia vs. Greece bilateral issues is very soft and paper thin, and that a lot of Greece's "friends" are simply taking the path of least resistance by siding with Greece by default, or perhaps put differently, they are not yet pissed off enough with Greece's demands to actually change the EU rules about vetoes on new membership. I also think Macedonia should keep the denar.

I almost agree. Except in the EU country club only the STRONG members have any pull. Germany says jump, Greece says "you will have to remove your penis out of my arse first".

One thing that I feel needs to be a priority for the Diaspora is human rights in Egej, Pirin, Mala Prespa... I am very tempted by the dream that one day, the Treaty of Bucharest borders will become irrelevant, that people, trade, ideas will travel freely from Lerin to Bitola to Gorna Dzumaja and back again. Is this just a dream? I don't know... maybe. But I think that an actual reunification of Macedonia is ... well, even more of a dream. So, I would take second best, if means that the Egejci and Pirinci get their rights and a chance to survive long term.

But surely you have seen what human rights within the EU framework means! Look at my letter and get back to me. Do you want to join these guys that bad?

Trust is a gift... I don't have any reason not to trust you. But I'd like to hear your battle plans for taking over Solun... I think I'll take out some life insurance first and find the biggest helmet I can find

That is nonsense. Trust is earned.
My plan for Solun involves finding a young Goce Delchev, then putting him on a white Arabian stud (horse not man) and having him charge to the tower as his legions follow behind him. Can you recommend a good modern day Delcev?

[Prolet]

That is nonsense. Trust is earned.

This is true

Here is the link to the suggested wording that the UMD is still free to use:
http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2929

Risto, If you recall on that thread i was very impressed with that letter you wrote, my question to you is was it sent to the right place? I hope it didnt go to waste it was a fine letter.

[Soldier of Macedon]

As for your suggestion, "move on"... that's a good one, I like it.

Then why are you still harping on about it?

The language and attitude used in your UMD 'releases' aren't exactly a mirror image of your imaturity here, are they? You are still a board member, correct? You must be. And fancy that, you come here like some innocent little man that has been 'cheap tricked', when all along, your agenda was obvious. Next time avoid the knee-jerk reactions, it's a testament to your character (or lack thereof).

[Piperka]

I agree. The "for" part can only be aligned with the Macedonian Cause.

Definitely.

We all have to remember that there are so many important parts to the Macedonian Cause - preserving the name, passing the language down to our children, making sure our local communities are strong, and so on... Everyone that cares, needs to find out what issues are most important to him/her and work towards them. We should all respect anyone that volunteers his/her time to move our communities in the right direction. When things aren't moving in the right direction, we need to speak up and at the same time pair those words with actions. Work harder and volunteer more at the organizations that you think make a difference and/or have made a difference in the shaping of your Macedonian identity. Most importantly, make sure that you pass on the language to your children. The language is tied to everything.

Forums may sometimes get heated, but they are necessary.

[mvb9999]

Hi Risto,
Wow it seems like I've got everyone's attention!
I'll try my best to address your points in a way that you find satisfactory.

Good question. Of course I feel betrayed. They have tried to be all things to all people so much so that it has never been clear what they in fact are.

They are a pro-Macedonian advocacy group and charity - sorry, it seems rather clear to me.

I feel that they NEVER adequately explained why their leader advocated a name change.

I've seen the Youtubes, and I've seen the so-called evidence related to this, and I think its pretty shaky. No one is perfect, and I'm sure there are things any leader of any organization has said, who then later looked back and thought, I wish I had said that differently or I wish I had been more clear and to the point. As far as what Meto specifically said or didn't say, I will leave it up to him to answer you or not answer you. As I've stated many times before, I am here as an individual, and the views that I express are my own.

Regardless of this ongoing issue, I still don't see UMD as "anti-Macedonian" by any stretch, and in case you are wondering, no, I do not advocate any name change whatsoever, and neither do the members or leadership of UMD.

I feel that their leader struggles to come to terms with this failure in his approach and has never dealt with it in a suitable fashion.

Like any leader, I am sure he faces many struggles, but here do you mean, the approach of advocating EU and NATO membership? If so, I think this approach is in keeping with the views of UMD members, a large portion of the Macedonian diaspora community and a majority of RoM citizens as well. If it weren't, I can't see why he would advocate it - unless of course you feel he is some kind of "spiun" along with the rest of UMD, which is something I feel has no credibility whatsoever. Regarding the negotiations, UMD hasn't come out strongly against them yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if this changed. I don't know if the percentages are exactly as expressed by your straw poll, but I do sense a rising frustration with the negotiations and the entire process. While many still do not see it as something which approaches "evil" or "treachery" as has been suggested on this forum, there is still strong dissatisfaction with the process even by those who are now willing to completely abandon it. It's not a black and white issue - its more a question of when do we cut them off for maximum benefit, and what are the next steps after, meri tri pati pa seci. I will also tell you that various DPMNE politicians were present at the Toronto conference, such as A. Nikolovski, and he got a very rough ride from UMD membership for the government's perceived ambiguity about the name, an ambiguity that UMD does not promote.

To see the hollow UMD statements about never changing the name of Macedonia and then justifications as recent as a few months ago as to why it might not be so bad. Well, what can I say, was your leader speaking on behalf of the UMD again? I will assume so.

Again, I thought Meto managed to clarify those statements, but I am not surprised that you will make assumptions about the whole organization, since as you stated before, the trust is gone for you, and I seriously doubt I am qualified or able to alter that. However, I will give you my perspective if you want it, so that these two polarized sides might have a chance of understanding each other a bit better.

Here is the link to the suggested wording that the UMD is still free to use:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2929

Let me know where you depart from the MTO with respect to the European Parliament response. Seriously how could the UMD do anything but denounce the EU charade if they were self respecting Macedonians?

Ok, let's give it a go...

MTO Response in relation to European Parliament Resolution
The Macedonian Truth Organisation (MTO) thanks the European Parliament for taking the time to consider issues affecting Macedonia and the possibility of joining the European Union in the European Parliament resolution of 10 February 2010 on the 2009 progress report on Macedonia.

We accept the prospect of EU membership has indeed driven many of the reform processes in Macedonia. We agree with many of the resolutions and note how well Macedonia has progressed in relation to fulfilling the Copenhagen Criteria. However, we are concerned with some matters pertaining to your resolution specifically in relation to the following statements included in your review of Macedonia’s Political Development and Regional Issues;

Quote:
8. Draws particular attention to the ongoing process of decentralisation, which is an important step in terms of helping the country to function better and improving inter-ethnic relations; stresses that, in order to ensure the successful implementation of this process, municipalities must be provided with sufficient funds to carry out their new tasks, and that their capacity to perform the competences transferred must be enhanced;
We agree with the European Parliaments earlier statement in the resolution that political stability is the common goal broadly shared by the country's political actors and ethnic groups. We fail to see how encouragement of the process of decentralization assists this goal. In fact, we view it as an attempt to encourage further instability with a final consequence being complete federalisation of Macedonia based on ethnic identities. We find no evidence of benefits exceeding the many costs in relation to this strategy. Why would the European Parliament seek to involve themselves in this "gamble"?

The wording of this EU recommendation is fairly vague to me, allowing for a various ways for the government to wiggle out of the scenario that you envisage, where Albanian fiefdoms pop up and abuse the Macedonians in their own country or attempt to break away by force. However, if I were writing this, I would add an extra element of a double-standard / inconsistency on part of the EU, since the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece enjoys no such regional benefits, and don't even enjoy being officially recognized. Macedonia needs to negotiate with EU on this basis, affording minority benefits in accordance with progress in Greece for our minority, which so far has been close to nil. If Brussels comes back with something along the lines of "well that's out of the question", then Macedonia can diplomatically use that for further negotiation. Here is the biggest failing of Macedonian foreign policy, I would argue; a reluctance to mention the ethnic minorities in EU countries that don't enjoy anything near what the minorities in RoM get.

Quote:
29. Recalls that, in accordance with the relevant European Council conclusions of 19 and 20 June 2008 and those of the General Affairs and Foreign Affairs Councils of 7 and 8 December 2008 and 8 December 2009, maintaining good neighbourly relations, including a negotiated and mutually acceptable solution on the name issue, continues to be essential;

This is the major sticking point that virtually guarantees stalemate, the phrase "mutually acceptable". All Greece has to do is continue to turn down RoM, and there will be no progress. Here the only hope is for Europe to wake up and stop being beholden to Greece's hostile foreign policy. The current outlook for that happening is not optimistic.

30. Welcomes, to this end, the new, more positive climate between the governments of Macedonia and Greece following the recent elections in Greece and, in particular, the recent meetings between the two prime ministers; encourages the two countries to redouble their efforts at the highest level, especially in the framework of UN negotiations, in order to find a mutually satisfactory solution to the name issue, under the auspices of the UN, and stresses that the European Union should be ready to assist in the negotiation process; notes with concern the use of historical arguments in the current debate, including the recent phenomenon of so-called "antiquisation", which is liable to increase tensions with neighbours and create new internal divisions;

The MTO is of the firm and substantiated belief that forcing Macedonia to change its name is a fundamental breach of human rights and is a direct attack on the sovereignty of Macedonia.

Forcing a name change from the outside is impossible; foreign countries can legally or illegally withdraw recognition, initiate sanctions, etc., so any forcing of this issue would be via indirect punitive measures. Ultimately, however, the only ones who can try to actually change the country's name is RoM leadership, and if they try to do this, the Diaspora must do everything in its power to stop them, because it would be a huge mistake and highly unethical.

We are of the perception that the European Parliament appears to embrace Greece’s historical arguments whilst condemning Macedonia for any attempts to introduce debate on historical matters.

I don't see that Macedonia is being singled out in this case, it says: "notes with concern the use of historical arguments in the current debate, including the recent phenomenon of so-called "antiquisation", which is liable to increase tensions with neighbours and create new internal divisions" - That sounds like it applies to Greece as well... if that's not how it was intended, then our negotiators should turn it around on the Greeks because they do this to the extreme.

We are not completely sure whose “historical arguments” are being attacked by the European Parliament in this current debate. Most Macedonians believe their fundamental human rights as Macedonians (not ancient Macedonians) should be more than adequate to be used in any naming debate.

Absolutely, I agree with that 100%

However, should Greece feel compelled to persist with historical debates, Macedonia is more than entitled to debate vigorously on these matters. With tens of thousands sites of archeological significance in Macedonia, there remains more than enough arguments for both common and uniquely identifying factors of historical significance.

Hmm... Ok, well of course any human has the right to debate and express themselves about history or other topics, and humans who work for states as negotiators are no different. But I really think the debate has nothing to do with Aleksandar Veliki - it has to do with a country that can't come to terms with the 21st century, can't come to terms with the multiplicity of ethnic minorities in its territory, and is lashing out at its neighbor in desperation. More recent history from the early 1900s to the Greek Civil War, the Deca Begalci, the reparations... these are historical areas which are relevant to any agreement between these two countries today.

Of particular concern to the MTO is the adoption of the “antiquisation” terminology introduced by the Macedonian opposition party and now embraced by the European Parliament. We note no names were mentioned by the European Parliament but feel compelled to remind the European Parliament that Greece has been doing this for the last 180 years starting from the “katharevousa” language experiment and ultimately culminating in a blatant denial of the existence of minorities living within its borders. Preferring instead to believe they are all direct descendants of ancient Hellenes instead. We do accept the process of “antiquisation” has transpired in many countries including Greece, Macedonia, England, France and Holland amongst others and believe the process was used to help forge national identities in many instances.

Ok.

We would like to introduce a new term called “Macedonianisation” and contend that Greece has been going through what can only be described as a thorough “Macedonianisation” over the last 20 years. Examples including the renaming of the Micra airport in Thessaloniki to “MACEDONIA” through to the process of “cash for comments” by historians and journalists. (During 1989 to 1993 from secret funds of the Greek Foreign Ministry headed by Andonis Samaras, Greek journalists received $130 million dollars (US) to promote the "greekness of Macedonia" according to the testimony of former Prime Minister Constantinos Mitsotakis.).

Yes, the $130m dollar fund is particularly relevant, because it is a media manipulation that is very hostile to Greece's neighbor.

Macedonians are more than justified in being offended with attacks on their identity given the ongoing attempts by consecutive Governments of Greece to negate and re-define them. The European Parliament should exercise caution in encouraging Greece to remain in such a position of belligerence.

Ok... I feel you here Risto, but I wonder if getting too much into the emotional dimension makes this part stronger or weaker. I would suggest a toning down... just talk about the facts, which are that Greece is obviously negotiating in bad faith, and that they are breaking their own rules. I don't object to how it is written, of course, but I think the more dispassionate tone earlier was great.

Quote:
32. Underlines the importance of reconciliation and understanding in the region, which are part and parcel of European values and principles, and encourages the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and neighbouring countries to engage actively in developing and implementing confidence-building measures in the fields of education and cross-border cooperation and generating a common understanding of history;

" a common understanding of history " ? < I don't like the sound of that at all.

calls on the authorities of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and neighbouring countries to avoid actions and statements which might adversely affect such efforts; notes that joint celebrations of common historic events with neighbouring EU Member States contribute to a better understanding of history and the maintenance of good neighbourly relations;

33. Calls on the authorities in the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to take the necessary measures to discourage "hate speech" relating to neighbouring EU Member States in the media and similar statements in school textbooks;

This call must apply to Greece equally, it is unfair for it to be aimed at RoM only.

Greece denies the existence of a Macedonian minority (amongst others) within its own borders even though the existence of ethnic Macedonians (from Greece) as minorities in all corners of the globe is readily proven. It would be impossible to reach consensus with Greece in relation to historical matters. What Greece often interprets as “hate speech” many others merely interpret as an affirmation of minority and/or human rights. Court cases held in the European courts have confirmed the prevailing attitudes in Greece in relation to its minorities. The Greeks have already been held accountable for their actions a number of times in the past.

Great.

The MTO is concerned that there appear to be two sets of rules as they apply to existing EU members like Greece and candidate countries like Macedonia. The consistent theme from this European Parliament resolution is that Macedonia is the only country to blame and, as a consequence, is the only country that must change. We cannot accept this as a statement of fact and strongly wish to register our disappointment with the European Parliament for not insisting Greece focus on its much more important economic issues rather than seeking to deny the rights of Macedonians.

I almost agree. Except in the EU country club only the STRONG members have any pull. Germany says jump, Greece says "you will have to remove your penis out of my arse first".

But surely you have seen what human rights within the EU framework means! Look at my letter and get back to me. Do you want to join these guys that bad?

I recommend that RoM maintain an open communication with these powerful neighbors, try not to burn bridges, but in the end, only enter the EU on our terms. If that's not possible, and it very well may not be, then we need to take an alternative path. I am not so concerned about the German hegemony issue that you bring up. Right now, it is true that Greece is being severely punished for its fraud against the EU, but they have no one to blame but themselves. Overall, I think Macedonia has more power in the EU than outside of it.

That is nonsense. Trust is earned.

Yes, it is, but earning is a give and take relationship, and I would like to do what I can break down the mistrust that has accumulated over the years. My previous comment must sound naive to you, but I truly believe there is a point where it is our best interest to give someone the benefit of the doubt in controlled way, and then closely monitor what they do with that trust. This can reveal much more about their character and integrity than simply rejecting what they say out of hand, which I don't think you are doing.

My plan for Solun involves finding a young Goce Delchev, then putting him on a white Arabian stud (horse not man) and having him charge to the tower as his legions follow behind him. Can you recommend a good modern day Delcev?

No, I can't. That was my whole point. No one would be happier than me to see the day where our people can have a college in Macedonian language, a Macedonian music or folklore festival, a Macedonian church in Solun... but I'm not holding my breath! And somehow I doubt that a successful plan involves charging towers on white horses.

I know you tried it already with Mitreski and it failed. But, let me suggest that you send your letter to me by email:
[email protected]

Include with your email anything else you feel is relevant; your previous communications with Mitreski, how you would like to see the letter used, etc.

The tempers have been flaring for so long; let me act as a kind of messenger for you.

I hope you take me up on my offer. The way I see it, it is a win-win for the MTO. If this idea succeeds, then it represents one small baby step towards establishing some kind trust with UMD. If this fails, then you will have another reason to harp on UMD, more arrows for your quiver... win-win.

Give it a try, RTG. I have to believe that there is a way for the MTO and the UMD to begin a peace process of some kind, or at least a ceasefire. Maybe this could be the first step?

I look forward to hearing from you.

[UMDiaspora.org]

За состојбата на малцинствата мора да се &#107

http://www1.voanews.com/macedonian/news/macedonia/UMD-95959179.html

[Vangelovski]

I've seen the Youtubes, and I've seen the so-called evidence related to this, and I think its pretty shaky. No one is perfect, and I'm sure there are things any leader of any organization has said, who then later looked back and thought, I wish I had said that differently or I wish I had been more clear and to the point. As far as what Meto specifically said or didn't say, I will leave it up to him to answer you or not answer you. As I've stated many times before, I am here as an individual, and the views that I express are my own.

Branov,

I think you can give up the charade.

The only other "leaders" that I can think of who have publically advocated for a name change are Crvenkovski and Georgievski. Granted, we could include Gligorov who actually did change our name.

As for the name negotiations not equating treason, I can only assume you are a vassal or insane.

[Vangelovski]

Branov,

You can add Manevski to that list:

Let me ask you this? What will you choose?

People in Macedonia dying and starving or “Democratic Republic of Macedonia”?

Denis Manevski, UMD Treasurer
17 March 2008
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Macedo.../message/10643

[Mr Brandy]

Branov,

I think you can give up the charade.

The only other "leaders" that I can think of who have publically advocated for a name change are Crvenkovski and Georgievski. Granted, we could include Gligorov who actually did change our name.

As for the name negotiations not equating treason, I can only assume you are a vassal or insane.

Vangelovski - this is what talking about - why don't you just argue the facts and leave out the " I can only assume you are a vassal or insane" part - it cheapens your earlier statement and does nothing to further your point.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski - this is what talking about - why don't you just argue the facts and leave out the " I can only assume you are a vassal or insane" part - it cheapens your earlier statement and does nothing to further your point.

Brandy,

What facts do you want to argue in relation to the name negotiations? Its a clear example of vassal policies. Do you understand what a vassal/vassal state is?

The only alternative I can think of is insanity. Perhaps you can provide another?

This is an existential battle - don't think that I'm here to sugarcoat treason in order to save hurt feelings. When I say open and honest debate, I mean it.

[Mr Brandy]

Brandy,

What facts do you want to argue in relation to the name negotiations? Its a clear example of vassal policies. Do you understand what a vassal/vassal state is?

The only alternative I can think of is insanity. Perhaps you can provide another?

This is an existential battle - don't think that I'm here to sugarcoat treason in order to save hurt feelings. When I say open and honest debate, I mean it.

Ok Vangelovski - you win

[Mr Brandy]

Brandy,

What facts do you want to argue in relation to the name negotiations? Its a clear example of vassal policies. Do you understand what a vassal/vassal state is?

The only alternative I can think of is insanity. Perhaps you can provide another?

This is an existential battle - don't think that I'm here to sugarcoat treason in order to save hurt feelings. When I say open and honest debate, I mean it.

Vangelovski - since debating you is considered treason and in your medical opinion, your opponent, MVB is insane - I just want to say this. I suggest you make your message as public as possible. I hope that you are promoting your ideology somewhere else other then the confines of a forum where a handful of loyalists will read it. Call your relatives in RoM, get meetings with politicians - fund people who can and get your message out there. Argeeing with each other here is wonderful but the real battle is actual not existential. We need more action and less talk.