United Macedonia Diaspora

[Mr Brandy]

Vangelovski - My question was really more related to you're John 14:6 quote. I am curious as to whether you are merciful towards other Macedonians - and do you have the ability to forgive those sheep that maybe have strayed away from the flock but then repented. I don't sense much mercy from this crowd - the attitude seems to be "you're either with us or against us"

[Risto the Great]

Risto - it hardly surprises me that the Australian Macedonian community that you apparently represent was unimpressed. Have you been democratically elected to represent the community?

MB, back in those days I was setting up my professional career and I have to admit there were indeed gaps in my detailed knowledge of all things Macedonian. I do not represent the Australian Macedonian community but I know quite a lot about them/us. I have not been democratically elected to represent anyone .... a bit like Meto I suppose.

Having said all of that, what exactly "hardly surprises you about the fact the Australian Macedonian community was unimpressed"? You will have to clarify your interpretation or perception of the Australian Macedonian community in order to adequately explain your statement.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski - My question was really more related to you're John 14:6 quote. I am curious as to whether you are merciful towards other Macedonians - and do you have the ability to forgive those sheep that maybe have strayed away from the flock but then repented. I don't sense much mercy from this crowd - the attitude seems to be "you're either with us or against us"

Of course I do. But while the sheep is still astray, I will continue to tell it where its gone wrong in an attempt to bring it back. I don't post here to belittle or criticise for the sake of it (though it may seem that way), I do it in order to show individuals/organisations where they have gone wrong and if they accept they have, how they can improve.

The problem with UMD is, it does not accept it has gone wrong, even though it supports the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement and still excuses its name change proposals as essentially 'a good idea at the time'.

[mvb9999]

Brandy, if the fact that the Bitove family consider themselves "Bulgarians" and then switched to Gligorovism isn't enough for you, then its easy to see why you support UMD.

John Bitove is no Bulgarian. If you had a cursory knowledge of Macedonian history, you would know that Macedonian people were divided in many different ways including religion, and that before the establishment of Yugoslav Macedonia and the MOC, our people had to do whatever the could to keep their community and their religion. In the early days of Macedonian settlement in places like Toronto, the Bulgarian church was the only Orthodox Church available, and that's why those old families went there. The cold-heartedness and ignorance of those who would judge our people for going to church is astounding, especially from someone who puts a biblical passage on his sig... You also left out that donations from Bitove and others like him that practically built the MOC across Canada and the US. They give millions of their own money, i ti samo plukas otrov, co cel da go pocrnis imeto na edna baska organizacija sto te otkazha... inaet nevideno.

[Vangelovski]

MVB,

I didn't base my statements on which Church Bitove attented or his religious beliefs. Two people can have genuine faith in Christ and disagree over various issues. Again, I never questioned his charitable activities. I based it on his political activities and views.

Now try again, this time without playing the victim as UMD usually does.

P.S. You don't seem to be responding to the question about Meto's equation of UMD with the Macedonian state in the other thread.

[Vangelovski]

MVB,

Seeing as you are a member of the UMD Board of Directors, perhaps you can explain the following comments that Meto made at the GC1.

Meto effectively equated UMD with the Macedonian state itself, as if they are one and the same and claims that attacking UMD is attacking the Macedonian state. How so? When did UMD become Macedonia itself? (the part in brackets was a little inaudible):

Those who propagate against Macedonia are well aware of the existence of our precious national resources like the UMD [that keeps our nation strong] and gives voice to our collective cause. As such, UMD is targeted and continuously under attack by those who wish to weaken and divide and destroy our nation’s institutions and in doing so the goals and aspirations they so effectively advance.

http://www.youtube.com/user/UMDiaspo...29/aqkAUc5kkbI
1:35 minutes

[Mr Brandy]

Vangelovski - I agree that constructive criticism should be welcome by UMD and any other group - however the tone on this forum is much closer to an old time lynching then simple criticisms.

That is my only issue! I completely respect and appreciate many of the opinions voiced here - I have learned many new and insightful things but anhillating UMD will help win the battle and then lose the war.

All I am saying is that the UMD hunt has morphed and taken on new dimension or rather an obsession on this forum.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski - I agree that constructive criticism should be welcome by UMD and any other group - however the tone on this forum is much closer to an old time lynching then simple criticisms.

That is my only issue! I completely respect and appreciate many of the opinions voiced here - I have learned many new and insightful things but anhillating UMD will help win the battle and then lose the war.

All I am saying is that the UMD hunt has morphed and taken on new dimension or rather an obsession on this forum.

Brandy,

It probably appears that way because this has been an ongoing issue for years. UMD has refused to respond to any concerns, choosing to ignore them or simply argue in favour of policies we believe to be detrimental to the cause.

The only rule here is open debate. I notice Lubi has deleted yet another UMD thread over at Maknews. He has done that continuously over the years in order to protect UMD when unfavourable evidence is brought to light.

I apologise if I seem abrupt and straight to the point, but these are serious issues that need direct and open debate.

[Mr Brandy]

Risto - quite honestly I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Australian Macedonian community. We have family and friends in Australia whom we deeply care for. When I hear statements from the "Mike Rann's" of the world it makes my blood boil! I am happy and joyful when I hear about good things happening in the Australian communities.

However having said this - on this forum ( and on Maknews ) is the onlytime in my life I have been called a traitor, internet goon, Anti-Macedonian etc. - this is something I don't understand.

I am new to this forum - and I actually got involved because of the relentless attempts at lynching the UMD. I don't agree with everything the UMD does or says but I do try and support every Macedonian group that is putting forward an earnest effort at making a difference.

[Mr Brandy]

Hi Vangelovski - you have been dealing with UMD longer then I have - maybe I will get fed up some day as well - not sure. I think UMD is still maturing and it is a young organization. I remember when I was younger I made lot's of mistakes - then you learn.

I think part of UMD's problem today with responding to your concerns is that since the hole is dug so deep that nothing they say or do will appease it's critics - they might be resigned to this fact.

As far as the UMD thread - I think that it was moved to the Archives. Kafana mentions this in one of his posts on another thread - don't remember where.

[Mr Brandy]

Vangelovski - another reason I support the concept of UMD is that they raise the bar or at least force everyone to define their own belief in the Cause. Quite frankly, not naming any names, there a several Macedonian organizations that have all of the sudden become more active with the UMD around. This is a good thing - it fosters a healthy competition that is needed.

[indigen]

To Mr Brandy, mvb9999 and Buktop,
We have had long, boring and endless discussions here regarding UMD, and this is mainly because UMD supporters end up spamming a particular thread and MTO readers end up losing interest in reading through 40 pages deep "discussion". Thus I have the following proposal:

1). We have a two persons discussion in a separate thread with 2 post per day limit.

2). UMD (or their supporters on MTO) pick one of them to be their representative and the MTO patriotic Macedonians pick the other, which, IME, should be Vangelovski.

3). We then let the readers decide who has truth and facts on their side and who is telling lies, has foggy ideology, and whether certain UMD policies are pro or anti Macedonian!


UMD supporters ganging up against Vangelovski (or some other poster opposed to the policies and public statements of their Messiah) on a particular thread and then spamming it into oblivion is something the MTO admins should seek to prevent and control, IMO!

[Mr Brandy]

To Mr Brandy, mvb9999 and Buktop,
We have had long, boring and endless discussions here regarding UMD, and this is mainly because UMD supporters end up spamming a particular thread and MTO readers end up losing interest in reading through 40 pages deep "discussion". Thus I have the following proposal:

1). We have a two persons discussion in a separate thread with 2 post per day limit.

2). UMD (or their supporters on MTO) pick one of them to be their representative and the MTO patriotic Macedonians pick the other, which, IME, should be Vangelovski.

3). We then let the readers decide who has truth and facts on their side and who is telling lies, has foggy ideology, and whether certain UMD policies are pro or anti Macedonian!


UMD supporters ganging up against Vangelovski (or some other poster opposed to the policies and public statements of their Messiah) on a particular thread and then spamming it into oblivion is something the MTO admins should seek to prevent and control, IMO!

Hi indigen - sorry if all this banter is boring you - I am not ganging up on anybody - I think Vangelovski can hold his own just fine. Your sarcasm about the "messiah" cheapens your credibility otherwise great idea. Indigen - there is only one Messiah.

[mvb9999]

MVB,

It seems actual documented evidence is irrelevant to UMD.

Documented evidence? A guy's brother signed something in 1960, so the guy is therefore a Bugarofil? Even Senator McCarthy make a stronger case when stoking the flames of the Red Threat for his own personal agenda.... nice try. Your inaet is with UMD, therefore whatever UMD does "has to be wrong"... how else can you justify yourself? So, UMD accepts donations from a Macedonian patriot named John Bitove, therefore, he must be a Bugarofil.... what a classic cheapshot.

This is probably why UMD has spoken out against ancient Macedonian history - it must deem the documented evidence and "irrelevant ancient documents"..???

What are you referring to?

Please explain how UMD is a threat to other organisation's funding?

Is that a rhetorical question? UMD takes in 100s of thousands of dollars in donations from patriotic Macedonian donors, and M/A/V is not blind to that.

Please also explain how UMD policies are the same as these organisations, seeing as you do not accept that as the reason they did not attend.

Policies aren't "the same", but they're similar enough. In my opinion, it is a shame for M/A/V to send no leadership to the Human Rights panel event, at least. They sent one last year, but last year UMD was giving an award to Passois. This year, the awardees only included Archimandrite Nikodim Tsarknias (an undisputed hero for Macedonian human rights in Egejska!), among others. M/A/V should have put the cause first, put their differences aside, and made an effort to support our Macedonian human rights activists, even if they're not members of Vinozhito.

Please also explain how UMD represents the interests of the diaspora across the globe?

UMD advocates for the Macedonian cause on a variety of issues in cities around the world. I doesn't mean they want to be the only group or that they pretend to be... no one ever said that, it's just another one of your two-bit fairy tales.

Finally, you do not deny the Gligorov/Bitove connection and their support for each other?

Of course I don't "deny" a connection between Bitove and Gligorov. When Macedonia's existence was hanging by a thread, Bitove stepped in and provided valuable expertise and advisors to RoM's first President.

Vangelovski, you talk about Gligorov - indeed, "Gligorovism", a word that you coined? - as if that is some kind of a mind-set, a political theory, or a political force of some kind today, but that just shows how out of touch you are.... its 2010, check the calendar.

At the conference, Bitove had some nice things to say about Gruevski, but I don't see any politician in Macedonia calling for the reunification of Vardar, Egej and Pirin, like Bitove did. So I don't know what kind of "ism" he should be labeled with, but I do think he's as patriotic and as Macedonian as Goce Delcev.

Your cheapshots against this man you don't know anything about really show your true colors - an inaetdzija first class with an axe to grind and a wounded ego.

[mvb9999]

Vangelovski - another reason I support the concept of UMD is that they raise the bar or at least force everyone to define their own belief in the Cause. Quite frankly, not naming any names, there a several Macedonian organizations that have all of the sudden become more active with the UMD around. This is a good thing - it fosters a healthy competition that is needed.

That is cista vistina. UMD has served as a wake up call, and I love to see Macedonian organizations around the world raising their game as a result. It's a beautiful thing.