United Macedonia Diaspora

[indigen]

Good, the Macedonians in MK should be aware of what the UMD agenda is.

Meto was probably ignorant of the existence of kajgana forums and (after joining up) he is now also polluting their forums with multiple bs (UMD Spam) posts that will surely give more ammo to those that have a critical eye for seeing who is aiding the Macedonian cause and who is undermining it.

[Soldier of Macedon]

He seems to have been too busy with the Bulgarophile leadership of the MPO, do what you can to ensure that our brothers and sisters at Kajgana know what sort of garbage ideas these fools wish to promote.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Kukuraiko, here's an 'novel' idea for you, don't give a free pass to those that agree with and support the stupid decisions our governments have made, lest you start looking as they do, opportunistic fools that are prepared to concede anything.

Don't you UMD supporters have any self-respect as Macedonians?

[Buktop]

Kukuraiko, here's an 'novel' idea for you, don't give a free pass to those that agree with and support the stupid decisions our governments have made, lest you start looking as they do, opportunistic fools that are prepared to concede anything.

Don't you UMD supporters have any self-respect as Macedonians?

While you are busy talking about UMD and their supporters, you could be contacting your government representatives, EU officials, Macedonian officials, and tell them how you feel... rather than wasting time arguing that UMD and their followers are anti-Macedonian, try being constructive and proactive. There will always be ideological differences that separate Macedonians, but we will always have an identity that unites us.

Organize the people here on the MTO to write as many e-mails as possible to Gruevski/Ivanov & Co. conveying your message about the cause and your feelings about the negotiations.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

Theodore Roosevelt

“I criticize by creation, not by finding fault”

Marcus Tullius Cicero

[Vangelovski]

While you are busy talking about UMD and their supporters, you could be contacting your government representatives, EU officials, Macedonian officials, and tell them how you feel... rather than wasting time arguing that UMD and their followers are anti-Macedonian, try being constructive and proactive. There will always be ideological differences that separate Macedonians, but we will always have an identity that unites us.

Organize the people here on the MTO to write as many e-mails as possible to Gruevski/Ivanov & Co. conveying your message about the cause and your feelings about the negotiations.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

Theodore Roosevelt

How can our identity "unite" us when it is our identity that is shapped by our vision and our principles. Our divergent visions means that our self-perception and identity is different as well. The UMDovci seek a particular type of nation based on a particular set of principles, history, and vision for the future, while ours is based on a completely different set of principles, history and vision for the future.

You can try to gloss over these FUNDAMENTAL differences like our Bulgar neighbours do, but the fact is we are talking about apples and oranges.

As to your quote, Meto's face is marred in nothing, and secondly, what counts in the reason for one's faced been marred. What principles is this person struggling for? What vision does he promote for the future? What interpretation does he hold of the past?

The reason we do not agree with each other is because our vision's for Macedonia and the Macedonian people are FUNDAMENTALY different. We may both call ourselves Macedonians, but we have a FUNDAMENTALLY different understanding of what a Macedonian is or should be.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You sound exactly like Meto, a true UMD apologist. I will spend my time as I see fit, and if I see it fit to make people aware of what sort of fools there are leading the UMD, and what sort of policies the UMD wish to pursue, and how they are detrimental to the Macedonian Cause, I will do exactly that.

You can dance the uzicko with Meto in the meantime.

And please, spare me your advice on what the MTO should and shouldn't be doing, you have absolutely no idea about what is taking place and the initiatives we are working on, and you have no clue of what it means to have integrity and consistency in an organisation.

All you know, is how to be an apologist for a fool.

[Soldier of Macedon]

This also coming from the same guy that needed the same story told to him in a thousand different ways before he could see past Meto's shit, and then swam straight back into it.

[Buktop]

How can our identity "unite" us when it is our identity that is shapped by our vision and our principles. Our divergent visions means that our self-perception and identity is different as well. The UMDovci seek a particular type of nation based on a particular set of principles, history, and vision for the future, while ours is based on a completely different set of principles, history and vision for the future.

A unique, independent, sovereign identity of being Macedonian exists irrespective of principle or vision of the future.

You can try to gloss over these FUNDAMENTAL differences like our Bulgar neighbours do, but the fact is we are talking about apples and oranges.

It is not glossing over differences, I am trying to draw focus onto common elements, rather than looking for what separates us. At the end of the day Apples and Oranges are both considered fruits.

As to your quote, Meto's face is marred in nothing, and secondly, what counts in the reason for one's faced been marred. What principles is this person struggling for? What vision does he promote for the future? What interpretation does he hold of the past?

The quote was not particularly about Meto, but about those making an effort to better our situation, those who actually make an effort to take action, regardless of the personal cost, instead of those I see who would rather criticize than bare the burden themselves.

The reason we do not agree with each other is because our vision's for Macedonia and the Macedonian people are FUNDAMENTALY different. We may both call ourselves Macedonians, but we have a FUNDAMENTALLY different understanding of what a Macedonian is or should be.

The vision is not different, the approach is where we find disagreement. From what I have seen and experienced, there are several different paths that can be taken to achieve the same vision, some favor a hard direct path, some favor a subtle less abrasive path. I do not find these approaches contradictory, or mutually exclusive, I do have preference as to which path I would choose, but that is not to say that it is any better than the one you advocate.

“There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but the view is always the same” Chinese Proverb

[Risto the Great]

The UMD are absolutely irrelevant in my opinion as far as the Macedonian Cause is concerned. I see little purpose in attacking them as compared to the Macedonian Government. It may bring short lived joy to vent some fury at Macedonian injustices via them, but ultimately, they are merely puppets for the Macedonian Government. This may not have been their agenda, but in order not to offend the Macedonian Government, they look like it and smell like it.

The UMD for all intents and purposes is the voice of the Macedonian Government in the Diaspora. And it would be a gross injustice to the many many active and patriotic Macedonians who have fought and those who continue to fight for the Macedonian Cause to ignore their concerns about Macedonian Diaspora organisations such as this. I have noticed a very simple kind of response from UMetoD TM nowadays after he is attacked by Australian Macedonians ... something to the effect of "How can you help Australia recognise Macedonia by its constitutional name". It is kind of a bitchy way of turning it back on Australian Macedonians instead of looking inwards and finally providing clarification of the UMD's agenda.

It is disappointing to see an organisation like UMetoD develop into what it has become. It could have been more useful to Macedonians but now is too tainted to harness respect in my opinion. The UMetoD has shown its colours and appeals to very compliant and subservient Macedonians. They would have been the "second in charge" in Ottoman times. Kind of like faithful dogs. We should be demanding much more than that nowadays.

But again, the focus needs to be turned on to more important things.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It could have been more useful to Macedonians but now is too tainted to harness respect in my opinion.

Completely agree.

But again, the focus needs to be turned on to more important things.

It does, but if these clowns are trying to make waves and consequently misinforming and lying to Macedonians worldwide, then they need to be exposed for the contradicting conglomerate they are. We can't allow them to achieve their distorted aims, the integrity of our people rests with self-respecting Macedonians who will always maintain their stance in the face of opportunism and treachery.

[Vangelovski]

Buktop,

This is more UMD style gloss that you're trying to shine on.
It has nothing to do with approach - we have a different vision. The substance of our disagreements is about our visions for the future and about our understanding of what a Macedonian is/should be.

[Soldier of Macedon]

And again, the 'impartial' Buktop is there, like every single other time, to defend the interests and image of the UMD.

[Vangelovski]

Completely agree.

It does, but if these clowns are trying to make waves and consequently misinforming and lying to Macedonians worldwide, then they need to be exposed for the contradicting conglomerate they are. We can't allow them to achieve their distorted aims, the integrity of our people rests with self-respecting Macedonians who will always maintain their stance in the face of opportunism and treachery.

I agree. I know a lot of activists who's gut reaction is to ignore UMD, but UMD now represents everything that they stand against. Further, UMD obviously has been provided with the financial backing (from somewhere) to open up an ideological war. When I "attack" UMD, I'm not trying to attack Meto or the organisation per se, but the ideas they put forward.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I know a lot of activists who's gut reaction is to ignore UMD, but UMD now represents everything that they stand against.

And that is the situation that many Macedonians like ourselves are in now. How do we ignore what they do, when it is so detrimental and dangerous for our people? We can't. And clearly, the UMD leadership won't allow itself to be held accountable for its own stupidity.

When I "attack" UMD, I'm not trying to attack Meto or the organisation per se, but the ideas they put forward.

Meto is the UMD, he (and the other jokers) can consider all of my comments directed at him (them). That the ideas they put forward are wrong is beyond question. The fact that it is them (UMD) that promote and push these ideas onto the Macedonians, cannot be disregarded.

Don't allow yourself to be an opportunistic tool, and you won't be classified as a treacherous fool. -- SoM (There's a quote for you Buktop).

[Buktop]

You sound exactly like Meto, a true UMD apologist. I will spend my time as I see fit, and if I see it fit to make people aware of what sort of fools there are leading the UMD, and what sort of policies the UMD wish to pursue, and how they are detrimental to the Macedonian Cause, I will do exactly that.

You are welcome to do it, just saying that maybe you should use your time a little more wisely.

You can dance the uzicko with Meto in the meantime.

I don't really know the Uzicko, besides I prefer Salsa and Bachata to Kolo.

And please, spare me your advice on what the MTO should and shouldn't be doing, you have absolutely no idea about what is taking place and the initiatives we are working on, and you have no clue of what it means to have integrity and consistency in an organisation.

All you know, is how to be an apologist for a fool.

It was a suggestion SoM, no need to get your panties in a twist. Perhaps you could share with me some of those initiatives so maybe I could have an idea?

Come now SoM, I have been consistent since back at Maknews, and I have done nothing which would suggest that I lack integrity.

This also coming from the same guy that needed the same story told to him in a thousand different ways before he could see past Meto's shit, and then swam straight back into it.

I acknowledged what was said in ZMR, I also acknowledged that it should not have been said, and then I acknowledged that Meto apologized for it. What don't you get about that?