United Macedonia Diaspora

[Vangelovski]

My point of the above post was to stimulate thinking on how to bypass the road blocks that hold us back from escaping from the Interim Accord and Framework agreement.

Also try to understand what you expect the UMD to do about these agreements since you are so critical of them for supporting them, which I disagree with.

Bypass? You mean ignore until they completely destroy our country?

These agreements are two of the most important issues facing the Macedonian people today. They need to be dealt with- not ignored.

I would like UMD to call on the Government to declare them null and void - like all other Australian Macedonian organisations have done.

[Volk]

I think it was more explaining then defending...

That's fair enough SOM, I dont necessarily completely agree with you though...

I am assuming you did not talk to Meto on his visit? I think maybe you should have, not to see that he is a 'good bloke' but for a chance to better understand him...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Volk, is he going to explain it to me differently to the way he did with Risto? Why doesn't he help everybody better understand him by being clinical and forward with his responses and statements at a place like this, where thousands are reading rather than just dozens or a couple hundred?

I mean come on, in Adelaide he is waving his finger around saying that he doesn't frequent 'forums', yet he is here with the psuedonym UMDiaspora.org doing exactly that. I am not accustomed to somebody speaking to me like I am some ignorant peasant, thinking that, all that needs to be done is take each of the 'rowdy' guys to the side and throw em' some sugar so they can ease up. I consider that an insult, anything he is prepared to say to me he should be prepared to say to the next Macedonian.

[Volk]

I would like UMD to call on the Government to declare them null and void

Okay that's the easiest part, what about the hard parts? Dealing with repercussions, preparing for war, isolation ( we are surrounded by NATO members now), possibility of economic blockades... Every scenario must be explored and prepared for before this happens... Timing has a great deal to do with it. Certain processes have started to ween economic dependence from greece...

This was the point of my post, it is much harder to come up with strategies that give us the opportunity to escape from the shackles placed on us (in great part by ourselves) than to simply call on the abolishment of accord, agreement.

[Volk]

SOM, I understand your point of view but I think talking to him one on one would have given you much more insight... I think a lot of us let our ego's get in the way, particularly here on the MTO forum.

[Soldier of Macedon]

.......talking to him one on one would have given you much more insight

What sort of insight? Can you explain it to me? It all seems to be leading back to the 'good bloke' syndrome.

I don't think so Volk, perhaps you would like to elaborate with some examples of how my 'ego' has got in the way of Meto being true to himself and the Macedonian people? You know for a fact that I had no issues with the UMD until relatively recently - mind you, it would have been much earlier had I chosen to delve into the matter a little more. I am glad I did.

Are you also one of the people at the MTO who has allowed his ego to get the better of him? Better yet, do any of the UMD supporters fall in this 'ego' category, or only those that choose to question the status quo?

[Vangelovski]

Volk, your scaremongering would be more effective if you could define exactly what you mean by the buzz words you use and actually provide some reasoning/evidence as to why you believe these "scenarios" could eventuate - "war", "isolation", "reprecussions", "economic blockades".

These are the same Gligorovist buzz words that scared the Macedonian people into these agreements in the first place. Repeating them whenever anyone calls for an end to these unjust, terrorist appeasing agreements only serves to keep them in place.

[Volk]

I don't think so Volk, perhaps you would like to elaborate with some examples of how my 'ego' has got in the way of Meto being true to himself and the Macedonian people?

I was not implying that SOM... Just making an observation about peoples egos on the forum.. And this is quite evident from the tone of some peoples posts.

Are you also one of the people at the MTO who has allowed his ego to get the better of him? Better yet, do any of the UMD supporters fall in this 'ego' category, or only those that choose to question the status quo?

I am sure they do fall into that category ( i dont keep a list as to peoples egos), I do not distinguish between UMD supporters and others, I base my responses and opinions based on peoples views and the way they express them.

Which status quo are you referring to?

[Volk]

your scaremongering

It's easy to avoid the hard questions and turn this on me and my 'scaremongering'. Is it 'scaremongering' to actually prepare for the worst, so it can be dealt with ? You seem to be under the impression Macedonia is a Superpower...

[Prolet]

SOM, It was an awesome speech im telling you, since i was impressed it was very good.

Гостинот од Америка г-дин Мето Колоски имаше срдечен пречек во Престон Македонија Социјалниот Клуб во Резерво каде пред околу 350 гости зборуваше за неговата посета и активностите кој ги има до сега остварено и превземено Македонската Обединета Дијаспора .

Многу мина се` воодушевија од тоа што го слушнаа од Мето Колоски и за рекордно време му остана добар впечаток и многумина од гостите си зедоа за право јавно да коментираат и да го споредат и со Македонскиот великан - Гоце Делчев.

SOM, Do you see what i mean??

Rogi, It says 350 i didnt count everybody.

People were fighting to get their photo taken with Meto, even the girls there.

Risto, It seems more to me that the person sitting next to Metodija did their best to stop you from getting your answer in Adelaide, Meto answered every question here and he gave everybody a chance to ask their questions.

Osiris, Ljubco Georgievski talked about patriotic lies, Metodija gave a true speech about bringing our Diaspora forward. He gave that feeling that our people have been lacking for years, if i wasnt impressed before im definitely impressed now. Im not talking about blind trust here, im talking about giving Meto an opportunity to do what he has and time will tell if he is right. Meto is not the Prime Minister of Macedonia however the lobbying is extremely important for us.

From what i was told, one businessman offered to give the UMD an office space free of charge in Melbourne. UMD are looking to open up an office in Canberra, he never said that he wants to take over any organization he said he just wants to work with them, he also gave tribute to the past people who have worked so hard for our communities. Like i mentioned earlier there were people who were skeptical and thats perfectly normal im skeptical myself in some things however its great that we can move forward and do what is right for Macedonia.

[Vangelovski]

Volk, seeing as you brought up these "scenario's" that we need to "prepare" for, how about you define what exactly what you mean by those buzz words, think about how they were used originally to force the Macedonian people into those agreements when they could have been avoided and provide evidence-based reasons as to why you believe these "scenarios" now preclude us from making any attempts to free ourselves from the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement:

1. war
2. isolation
3. reprecussions
4. economic blockades

Doing this excercise may change your views about some of these "scenario's".

[Prolet]

Vangelovski, Metodija was asked if it was true that he supported a name change, (Severna Makedonija) and he said thats not true. The Interim Accord was not asked from what i can remember however questions about MPO were asked, questions about the Torbeshi which were never asked before, questions are the Albanian demands in Macedonia,Matthew Nemetz,Phillip Reeker you name it like i said a good 45 minutes of questions were asked.

Vangelovski, What are your thoughts of the UMD opening up an office in Canberra to directly tackle the name issue with Stari Kraj? Do you see that as a positive step in order to pursue our fight into gaining name recognition?? I think this is exactly what we need to be honest.

Pelister, Even you claimed to be impressed but not fully convinced, i dont think even Meto can be convinced before the job is done. He didnt promise brda and planini, he said he working for the Macedonian cause here, he said when the UMD first started they had 2 US Senators on their side, now they have 15 can you see the difference? You know that this is good for us, we must unite and clean up our backyard first then we can fully prepare for battle. Nobody said its going to be easy but we dont have any other choice, we need hope for our community. We cannot be standing still any longer we need to move and we need to move quickly.

[Volk]

Lets play your little game...

1. Framework Agreement was used to stop the conflict in 2001, so in terms it was in a way a peace treaty. What happens when you abolish a peace treaty? war... The albanians will say look we have tried everything, we cannot live with these people we want to join albania... Remember the 'disarmament' was a farce...

The agreement was made under massive IC pressure, even threats to bomb MK. It also included an arms embargo.

2. isolation, what is an arms embargo? NATO and EU membership are tied with both agreements, renouncing them immediately will result in Macedonia being surrounded by NATO and EU countries with no access to a port.

3. reprecussions these are point 1, 2, 4

4. economic blockades- this was done in the past by greece and cannot be ruled this time.

Maybe you can answer why Macedonia can renounce both agreements simultaneously and avoid the above...?

[Vangelovski]

Prolet, while UMD supports anti-Macedonian, terrorist appeasing agreements and has a Board that flip-flops over the name, I don't think UMD should be "tackling" anything other than charity fundraisers, which to-date have been its only activities which I can commend.

[Vangelovski]

Lets play your little game...

1. Framework Agreement was used to stop the conflict in 2001, so in terms it was in a way a peace treaty. What happens when you abolish a peace treaty? war... The albanians will say look we have tried everything, we cannot live with these people we want to join albania... Remember the 'disarmament' was a farce...

The agreement was made under massive IC pressure, even threats to bomb MK. It also included an arms embargo.

2. isolation, what is an arms embargo? NATO and EU membership are tied with both agreements, renouncing them immediately will result in Macedonia being surrounded by NATO and EU countries with no access to a port.

3. reprecussions these are point 1, 2, 4

4. economic blockades- this was done in the past by greece and cannot be ruled this time.

Maybe you can answer why Macedonia can renounce both agreements simultaneously and avoid the above...?

Volk, that was the fastest, "ill-reasoned", "non-evidence-based" answer I've ever seen. You managed to ignore my entire question and my request for a well-reasoned, evidence-based answer, taking into account past failures and flawed assumptions. This was mainly for your benefit, to help you move away from your support of the status-quo, but I don't think that will happen any time soon. There was a further purpose to my questioning of your "scenario's" and that was to get you thinking about the concepts of an "independent state" and the "responsibilities" essential to maintaining liberty.