Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI)

[Amphipolis]

Oh, come on. It wasn't that hard for you recent ancestors to refer to the Macedonians' language as Macedonian. Take George Demetrios and his book, "When I Was A Boy in Greece" from 1913:

It's really sad how you can't recognize a Macedonian language called MACEDONIAN but your ancestors did. It just shows how insecure you are in your own Greek identity.

I don’t know if this is the Greek-American sculptor or someone with the same name, but it’s not the first time I read something like that. This phrasing has been used by many, including the official Greek propaganda at one point. Each such statement has its’ own reason and value. In this case it’s rather innocent.

I have been in many discussions on whether your language differs from Serbian or Bulgarian, if it should be considered a language or a dialect etc. and have received few answers. The problem is I can’t have a personal opinion as I don’t speak it, but you can have. So do Bulgarians or Serbs.

[DraganOfStip]

I have been in many discussions on whether your language differs from Serbian or Bulgarian, if it should be considered a language or a dialect etc.

You have no say in that, you continue your walk on thin ice.
Choose your words wisely.

[Amphipolis]

That doesn't change the fact that Greece is the only country in the world (besides maybe Cyprus, which is understandable from known reasons) out of approximately 200 that has a problem with Macedonia's name.
Therefore, the "problem" is not multilateral, nor bilateral, but unilateral, since it's a problem of just one side.
Or in democratic terms - you're far outvoted.

If it is a matter of the world we’re certainly outvoted, but this is something that matters Greece, not Brazil or Sweden.

No no no, don't twist and turn the way it suits you.
No one argues that almost all countries in the world have ruled another at certain points in history and that part of your post isn't disputable, you know this very well.
It's the part where you say someone has justified territorial claims towards us because of it is the problem.
By your logic, Persia (Iran) would be justified to lay claims to some of your territories because at a certain point in time it ruled them?
Or Italy as the successor of the Roman empire?
Or the Turks for that matter?

I don’t twist and turn. I’m just not sure what it is that you misunderstood or impressed you so much. I was saying that Macedonia is Greek (now) but I understand many others who have passed here, have claims or are part of its history.

Copyright and trademark were just a metaphor, you know this too.
Don't just reply for the sake of replying.
All this "sweet talk" isn't getting you anywhere, you showed your true face in the highlighted text.
I'd be very careful to use such rhetoric once again here if I were you.

I don’t sweet talk. This is more than a metaphor. It is essentially a “copyright” dispute (who has a right on a name), but I don’t mean it in the commercial way.

[vicsinad]

I don’t know if this is the Greek-American sculptor or someone with the same name, but it’s not the first time I read something like that. This phrasing has been used by many, including the official Greek propaganda at one point. Each such statement has its’ own reason and value. In this case it’s rather innocent.

I have been in many discussions on whether your language differs from Serbian or Bulgarian, if it should be considered a language or a dialect etc. and have received few answers. The problem is I can’t have a personal opinion as I don’t speak it, but you can have. So do Bulgarians or Serbs.

I just hear noise from you.

In this case, a Greek who lived with Macedonians acknowledged that he and other Macedonians in the late 1800s and early 1900s referred to the the language that Macedonians spoke as Macedonian. I don't need to speak Greek or Russian or Italian to have an opinion on what those languages are called or whether they should be called languages. In this case, however, the author is likely referring to the Macedonian dialect of the Slavic family of dialects.

Greeks used to refer to it as Macedonian. That's the bottom line, as you said Greeks have a problem with the Macedonian language being called Macedonian. That's the point. That Greeks 100 years ago didn't have a problem with it being called Macedonian and differentiating it from Bulgarian.

You can't just go ahead and label things as Greek government or Church propaganda only when it fits a point that you want to make.

[Amphipolis]

Amphipolis what history do you give the refugees of the 1920s that were transplanted into modern greece? they didn't recongnise the greek language and had to be taught. where would you say their greek history starts? please explain.

Too bad that your deluded rant how Macedonians don't exist other than under a modern greek idiom still can't fool many.

The Turkophone Greeks were a small part of the 1920s refugees (around 8%). Not sure if it is correct to see them as a solid group, but they’re usually called Caramanledes and they’re a sub-group of the Cappadocians.

Caramanledes spoke a Turkish dialect (with few Greek elements) while Cappadocians had a mixed language (something like a 50%-50% Greek-Turkish language).

Why? The theories (pro-Greek, pro-Turkish or neutral) are presented here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides

though none of the three seems fully convincing to me.

It’s interesting that 75% of these people decided to convert to Islam at the last minute and stayed in Turkey.

I think there are also Turkish speakers among the Pontian people or people form the Caucasus area but I could be wrong.

[Spirit]

I don’t know if this is the Greek-American sculptor or someone with the same name, but it’s not the first time I read something like that. This phrasing has been used by many, including the official Greek propaganda at one point. Each such statement has its’ own reason and value. In this case it’s rather innocent.

I have been in many discussions on whether your language differs from Serbian or Bulgarian, if it should be considered a language or a dialect etc. and have received few answers. The problem is I can’t have a personal opinion as I don’t speak it, but you can have. So do Bulgarians or Serbs.

It is a recognised language by linguists from all over the world and by institutions and countries.
Though the languages are compatible there are significant differences, I have Serbian relatives, my wife is half Serbian/ half Macedonian and when she speaks to her Serbian relatives I can barely understand it or they have to speak to me really slowly so I can get the gist of it or my wife has to translate it for me.
Same with Bulgarian. When I was in Macedonia 4 years I went with my cousins to Lake Dorjan which is on the eastern side of Macedonia and on the other side is Greece. I had trouble understanding the local Macedonians and I asked my cousins why this was so and they informed me that it was due to the influence of Bulgarian on the dialects in Eastern Macedonia.
Does the fact that there are some Macedonian and Greek worlds that are the same or similar for example the words for bed, ladder, t-shirt, jumper etc make Macedonian a dialect of Greek. No but once again this shows the extent that all the cultures in the Balkans have significantly influenced each other.

[Risto the Great]

Macedonia has certainly always been known as such, this is something we agree at. What we don’t accept is that YOU are Macedonia. According to us WE are Macedonia, in geographical and historical terms.

According to Greeks, they rely on the fact that if they posture loudly enough and have the memory of goldfish, they can say anything and believe it. Why do you simply continue to bleat when others give you specific historical texts that utterly refute your supposedly "matter of fact" statements. I thought Greece stopped its propaganda payroll budget a long time ago. Are you the last on the payroll?

From my point of view, that should be Greece. Greece should make a step, the obvious step of withdrawal that is already foreseen in the Interim Accord. “This Interim Accord shall remain in force until superseded by a definitive agreement, provided that after seven years [i.e. in 2002] either Party may withdraw from this Interim Accord by a written notice, which shall take effect 12 months after its delivery to the other Party”.

You're saying Greece should withdraw. Hilarious! Greece is the only one relying on the agreement. What would Greece benefit from if it is terminated? Macedonia should withdraw. I eagerly await permission from the EU to allow Greece an embargo against Macedonia.

Where will all the Macedonians in Greece go to get their petrol, meat and capsicums?

[Risto the Great]

I have been in many discussions on whether your language differs from Serbian or Bulgarian, if it should be considered a language or a dialect etc. and have received few answers. The problem is I can’t have a personal opinion as I don’t speak it, but you can have. So do Bulgarians or Serbs.

Aren't you precious about your definitions.

Why listen to those new nations and opinions?
Feel free to read about the language of Macedonians from the 16th century here:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3066

After you do that, please take note how little it has departed from modern Macedonian. Then find me a language that has remained so untarnished in a similar fashion for a period greater than 500 years. HINT: Greek (and English for that matter) would be a tragic choice.

Ancient Macedonian was also a language by the way.

[Karposh]

I thought the following might be of some relevance to this discussion (Re. Macedonian language).

In the 1910 USA Census instructions, under the heading “Ability to Speak English”, Clause 134, there was an approved list of officially acceptable languages that one could choose from only. In the context it was intended, putting down Macedonian as your native language was not acceptable to the Census officials and was treated in the same way as someone who wrote Austrian instead of German. Judging by the instructions given, It was slightly different for the case of people entering the USA from Macedonia as the perception back then was that Macedonia was just a geographical region with a myriad of different peoples and languages and no real “Macedonian” ethnicity and language.

Clause 137 states: “Do not write "Macedonian," but write Bulgarian, Turkish, Greek, Servian, or Roumanian, as the case may be.”

https://usa.ipums.org/usa/voliii/inst1910.shtml

The 1910 USA Census was held not long after the Ilinden rebellion when Ottoman Macedonia was constantly in the headlines but not much was known about the actual inhabitants of Macedonia besides official propaganda reports where the local Slavic population was presented as mainly Bulgarian.

The “pechalbari” were just starting to make their way to America and it must have come as quite a surprise to American officials to see these people refer to themselves as Macedonians and their language as Macedonian. The American Immigration Officials must have been scratching their heads and asking themselves: “Where are all the Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs or Romanians from Macedonia? Aren’t these people meant to be synonymous with the French salad “Macedoine"?

It’s interesting to see how the perception changed in the next USA Census of 1920 with regards to the Macedonians and the Macedonian language. Clause 146, under the heading “Nativity and Mother Tongue” lists “Macedonian” on their list of “Principal Foreign Languages”. What a difference 10 years makes!

https://usa.ipums.org/usa/voliii/inst1920.shtml

This is 25 years before the codification of Macedonian in the newly formed Macedonian republic.

The Macedonian language is listed once more in the 1930 USA Census’ Principal Foreign Languages list under the heading “Mother Tongue” ( Clause 177).

https://usa.ipums.org/usa/voliii/inst1930.shtml

[Amphipolis]

According to Greeks, they rely on the fact that if they posture loudly enough and have the memory of goldfish, they can say anything and believe it. Why do you simply continue to bleat when others give you specific historical texts that utterly refute your supposedly "matter of fact" statements. I thought Greece stopped its propaganda payroll budget a long time ago. Are you the last on the payroll?

You're saying Greece should withdraw. Hilarious! Greece is the only one relying on the agreement. What would Greece benefit from if it is terminated? Macedonia should withdraw. I eagerly await permission from the EU to allow Greece an embargo against Macedonia.

Where will all the Macedonians in Greece go to get their petrol, meat and capsicums?

1. What historical text? Can’t you be a little more specific? As I’ve told you before I don’t need money to do my duty. Is it different for you?

2. That is my personal policy, not the government’s one. I think both governments are too lazy and compromising to take such a risk. At least, speaking from Greece’s side I don’t see it in the visible future.

3. You have to live TOO close to the borders and the crossing points in order to cross the borders for shopping.

Aren't you precious about your definitions.

Why listen to those new nations and opinions?
Feel free to read about the language of Macedonians from the 16th century here:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3066

After you do that, please take note how little it has departed from modern Macedonian. Then find me a language that has remained so untarnished in a similar fashion for a period greater than 500 years. HINT: Greek (and English for that matter) would be a tragic choice.

Ancient Macedonian was also a language by the way.

1. I have to. Because these two “new” nations know.

2. I have visited that thread. Actually if you go to the last page, the latest (most recent) comment was by me.

3. It’s not only Greek and English, but probably most of the known languages. Do you think French people have a problem understanding Moliere?

4. This view is also very far from being established (to put it politely).


===

[Risto the Great]

I can't understand original Shakespeare. Just like Greeks can't understand ancient Greek. But I understood the Macedonian text perfectly.

[DraganOfStip]

If it is a matter of the world we’re certainly outvoted, but this is something that matters Greece, not Brazil or Sweden.

And because it is Greece you should get special treatment?
You somehow refuse to see the bigger picture as to why this "issue" is irrelevant to everyone except Greece and is therefore an unilateral problem.
No nation/country is entitled to decide what another nation/country should be called.It simply has no say in that.That IS the point.
For some reason you have a problem understanding that throughout this forum.

I don’t twist and turn. I’m just not sure what it is that you misunderstood or impressed you so much. I was saying that Macedonia is Greek (now) but I understand many others who have passed here, have claims or are part of its history.

How about the fact that, to use a metaphor, you've been constantly serving on the table covered with whipped cream and candy so that it passes the food inspectorate of the authorities?
By using "we" instead of "I",by bending the forum rules as much as you can just below their breaking point (so you don't get the boot) while inflicting as much damage as you possibly can?

I don’t sweet talk. This is more than a metaphor. It is essentially a “copyright” dispute (who has a right on a name), but I don’t mean it in the commercial way.

Macedonia and Greece don't have a name copyright dispute.
Greece does.
I thought we cleared that out by now.

[Stojacanec]

The Turkophone Greeks were a small part of the 1920s refugees (around 8%). Not sure if it is correct to see them as a solid group, but they’re usually called Caramanledes and they’re a sub-group of the Cappadocians.

Caramanledes spoke a Turkish dialect (with few Greek elements) while Cappadocians had a mixed language (something like a 50%-50% Greek-Turkish language).

Why? The theories (pro-Greek, pro-Turkish or neutral) are presented here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides

though none of the three seems fully convincing to me.

It’s interesting that 75% of these people decided to convert to Islam at the last minute and stayed in Turkey.

I think there are also Turkish speakers among the Pontian people or people form the Caucasus area but I could be wrong.

Let me help you out further. You are not Macedonians but are modern greeks. Your history starts as Refugees from Anatolia or RFA.

And only 8% you say had to be taught the greek language? All articles of the day definatley portray a language problem and the need for education.

Its just your (greek) way of twisting things again.

Don't give me this bs about the Caramanledes, just prove to me that 92% of Anatolian Refugees came as ready made greeks.

By the way, I prefer original text of the day rather than what a modern day journalist or so called historian thinks.

[Risto the Great]

4. This view is also very far from being established (to put it politely).===

You are referring to the Ancient Macedonian language. Feel free to NOT put it politely. Tell me your facts about the ancient Macedonian language.

[Risto the Great]

1. I have to. Because these two “new” nations know.

You HAVE to listen to Serbs and Bulgarians? Are you really Greek? Must you also accept that Macedonia was also Serbian or Bulgarian in accordance with things they "know". Pathetic.