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Originally posted by Pavle Pijanica
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You're such a hero Pavle. What would we do without contributors like you?If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams -
You tell me Tom, you seem to be writing PHD theses on how the world can be changed. Actions speak louder than words my friend....do something!!!Comment
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You see this forum here pavle? Its part of what we do. That's something. Now, why don't you get of the grog and do something?Originally posted by Pavle Pijanica View PostIf my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John AdamsComment
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And what is that Tom....what is it that "you do" that this forum is such apart of your life and continues to support the Macedonian cause? Tell me?? So far I've been called a hero and to do something...what are you guys doing to ensure that the Macedonian name doesn't get changed except for bitching and moaning that "Oh Grujo and our people love the slave mentality within them and don't give a f**k.." if that's the case do something about it like I said....there's no use telling us on the forum if nothing is going to be achieved...And that's why I'm saying, you want to make a difference, go and become a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia, enter into the political stream there and make a difference!!!Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
My message is pure and simple.Comment
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Pavle, I'm posting using my real name and I'm a committee member of MTO Inc. How about you post with your real name and any associations you may have with any organisations. Then we can have a serious conversation. Until then, its you that is an internet warrior - a nobody using a fake internet identity to have a whinge.Originally posted by Pavle Pijanica View PostIf my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John AdamsComment
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Pavle, never underestimate the importance of the message, regardless of the means of conveying it.Originally posted by Pavle Pijanica View Post
The message in this case is quite simple and the means to disseminate it is this forum...that alone is a powerful contribution to the 'cause'...and that's not to say that Vangelovski or countless others don't make further contributions, largely at huge personal costs.Comment
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Pijanica,
Instead of polluting this thread, you could comment on this one:
http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/sho...09&postcount=3
This was an open invitation for ideas, thoughts, etc...
If you want to get personal about who's doing what, then I suggest as in my previous post, that you give us your real name and associations (Like I have) and then we can talk about who's done what and whether or not it even matters.If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John AdamsComment
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How do you want to help achieve human rights for oppressed Macedonians?
How do you want to help achieve human rights for oppressed Macedonians?
- Help to open another new Macedonian-language kindergarten in Albania?
- Fund more language classes and the opening of a cultural centre in Aegean Macedonia?
- Or contribute to the crucial Our Name is Macedonia campaign, which demands an immediate end to the name negotiations?
These are only some examples of the vital work that Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) does. Macedonians in all parts of Macedonia are demanding their human rights, and to stop being persecuted just for being Macedonian by the governments of Greece, Bulgaria and Albania. These countries are continuing their campaigns aimed at eradicating anything Macedonian, and it’s up to us to make sure that it ends.
Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia have been arrested by Bulgarian secret police for joining a Macedonian organization, Macedonians in Mala Prespa received death threats by Albanian government officials and were beaten for attending Macedonian-language classes, and Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia have been attacked by Greek neo-Nazis and police for attending Macedonian events.
Despite the scare-tactics, Macedonians are not intimidated. They are still proudly declaring themselves as Macedonians and demanding their human rights. Festivals celebrating Macedonian culture and language are happening throughout in Aegean Macedonia, where people proudly sing and dance patriotic Macedonian songs. Commemorations honouring Macedonian heroes occur throughout Pirin Macedonia and the original Macedonian flag flies proudly in Mala Prespa, Albania including the villages in which Macedonian politicians have been elected.
MHRMI Macedonian-language school in Korca, Albania
These successes only occur because of supporters like you and the crucial work that MHRMI and its partner organizations in all parts of Macedonia undertake. You can help to continue this progress by joining the MHRMI Human Rights Fund and making a valuable annual, monthly or one-time donation. You can specify that your donation go to one of our projects below, or wherever it is needed most. We are also looking for volunteers to help in our human rights work.
Macedonian Human Rights Movement International, and our partners the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee, are the only organizations in the Macedonian diaspora that finance and organize Macedonian human rights activities in the Balkans. Among our many initiatives are:
- The purchase and financing of a Macedonian radio station in Lerin and TV station in Korca, Albania;
- Macedonian language classes throughout Aegean Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia and Albania, including the opening of another kindergarten in Korca;
- The funding of Nova Zora, Narodna Volja and other Macedonian newspapers and publications in Aegean Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia and Mala Prespa/Golo Brdo;
- The crucial Our Name is Macedonia campaign, which demands an immediate end to the "name negotiations";
- Funding cultural festivals for Macedonians in all parts of Macedonia in order to spread Macedonian culture, language and to demand human rights;
- The operation of human rights offices for Macedonians in Bulgaria, Greece and Albania;
- Funding the opening of a Macedonian Cultural Centre in Lerin, Aegean Macedonia;
- Funding successful election campaigns for Macedonians in Albania, Greece and Bulgaria in order to advocate for Macedonian human rights;
- Attendance at United Nations and European human rights conferences demanding an end to discrimination against Macedonians;
- Demanding recognition and support for Macedonia and Macedonian human rights in Washington, Ottawa, Brussels and throughout the world.
We are also calling on Macedonian organizations throughout the world to join us in helping eliminate discrimination against Macedonians. Please join our monthly program in which organizations contribute to the project of their choice and help spread the word at their events about the need for action in advocating for Macedonian human rights.
Please contribute at www.mhrmi.org/donation.asp or for more information, please call 416-850-7125, email [email protected], or visit www.mhrmi.org, www.facebook.com/mhrmi, twitter.com/mhrmi.
You can make a difference for Macedonians struggling to achieve their human rights. Please do it today. Thank you for your support.
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Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) has been active on human and national rights issues for Macedonians and other oppressed peoples since 1986. For more information: www.mhrmi.org, www.twitter.com/mhrmi, www.facebook.com/mhrmi, [email protected], +1 416-850-7125.Comment
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MHRMI and AMHRC Increase Funding for Macedonian Language Classes in Albania
MHRMI and AMHRC Increase Funding for Macedonian Language Classes in Albania
Toronto and Melbourne (May 8, 2014) – Macedonian Human Rights Movement International and the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee have increased funding for the MHRMI/AMHRC sponsored Macedonian-language schools throughout Albania and the Macedonian-language TV station in Korca, Albania.
Previously, Albanian government officials and secret service agents issued death threats to the Macedonian teachers, beat and tried to intimidate the students, but the private Macedonian-language classes have continued to thrive. (www.mhrmi.org/news/2010/december10_e.asp and www.mhrmi.org/news/2010/february14_e.asp)
The Albanian government’s latest move in trying to suppress the Macedonian language is a reorganization of Macedonian-populated municipalities and amalgamating them into Albanian-populated ones. This would reduce the percentage of Macedonians in each district and give Albania an excuse to stop providing public education in Macedonian.
This directly affects the community of Pustec in the region of Mala Prespa, the communities of Ostreni, Steblevo and Trebishte in the region of Golo Brdo and the communities Zapot and Shishtavec in the region of Gora. During a meeting with local Macedonians, the Minister of Local Self-Governance, Blendi Chuchi, offered a “guarantee” that the community of Pustec would not be dissolved. However, no guarantees were received for the other communities as the Albanian state does not recognize the existence of Macedonians anywhere other than in Pustec, and does not provide them with any public education.
“The Albanian Parliament will vote on this proposed law at the end of July. Until then, we demand from the Albanian authorities and international representatives, that the communities where Macedonians live not be dissolved. Albania’s attempts to deny us our right to education in our mother-tongue must end”, said Edmond Osmani, President of the Golo Brdo local committee of the Macedonian Alliance for European Integration.
Macedonian organizations have repeatedly started petition drives and delivered demands to the Albanian Ministry of Education and other educational institutions to allow the instruction of the Macedonian language, only to be denied or ignored.
“Thankfully, MHRMI and AMHRC have stepped in and funded several private Macedonian-language schools and kindergartens, and continue to open more throughout the areas where Macedonians live, including the regions of Gora and Golo Brdo and the cities of Korca, Pogradec, Bilishta and Vrbnik”, added Edmond Osmani.
The need for a private Macedonian-language TV station arose from the lack of Macedonian content on Albanian television and the denial of access to Macedonian candidates running in local elections.
Ironically, Albanians complain of discrimination in the Republic of Macedonia, despite being taught in Albanian at the university level, but are taking every measure possible to limit the amount of Macedonian being taught in Albania.
MHRMI and AMHRC condemn Albania’s continued state-sponsored discrimination against its Macedonian minority and demand that the international community finally hold it accountable. This includes the recent Council of Europe resolution which requires that Albania ensures education in all of its minority languages.
MHRMI and AMHRC will continue to increase Macedonian language classes throughout Albania. To help ensure the survival, and growth, of the Macedonian language in Albania, please contribute to the MHRMI Human Rights Fund or AMHRC Macedonian Minorities Support Fund.
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Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) has been active on human and national rights issues for Macedonians and other oppressed peoples since 1986. For more information: www.mhrmi.org, www.twitter.com/mhrmi, www.facebook.com/mhrmi, [email protected], +1 416-850-7125.
Established in 1984, the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee (AMHRC) is a non-governmental organisation that informs and advocates before international institutions, governments and broader communities about combating racism and promoting human rights. Our aspiration is to ensure that Macedonian communities and other excluded groups throughout the world, are recognised, respected and afforded equitable treatment. For more information please visit www.macedonianhr.org.au, email [email protected] or via +61 3 9329 8960.Comment
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Macedonian minority response to racist Bulgarian member of European Parliament
Statement by OMO ”Ilinden”- PIRIN, member of the European Free Alliance regarding the letter circulated to European MPs by Angel Dzambaski, ultranationalist and member of the European Parliament.
OMO Ilinden PIRIN, MHRMI and AMHRC - July 29, 2014
It is sad indeed that the European Parliament contains ultranationalists such as the representative of VMRO, mister Angel Dzambaski, who is known in Bulgaria for his racist statements regarding Roma and the insults he has directed against Macedonians. It is therefore no surprise that he is abusing his new position in order to spread hatred and disinformation in the European Parliament. According to him there are no Macedonians in Macedonia which has “historically always been predominantly populated by Bulgarians”. This same person, not surprisingly, also denies our existence as Macedonians in Bulgaria.
Why are we paying any attention to a person with such a primitive world view? Because mister Dzambaski’s statements, even though they emanate from an ultra- nationalist, in essence reflect the views and thoughts of the majority or almost all Bulgarian European MPs. His letter, if nothing else, serves as a good example of the extreme, irrational nationalism which is displayed in Bulgaria vis-a-vis the Macedonians, irrespective of whether they live in Macedonia or Bulgaria.
We have always stated that we respect and support the rights of all minorities, irrespective of their size and, in that regard, the rights of the Bulgarian minority in Macedonia. If the discrimination that mister Dzambaski speaks of did in fact exist in Macedonia, we would protest against it as we consider that all discrimination is impermissible and something that should concern us. Fortunately, however, the status of Bulgarians in Macedonia is not as Dzambaski describes it. Proof of that is the fact that not one international human rights organization has noted any discrimination and mistreatment of Bulgarians in Macedonia.
It is for this reason that we have come to the unavoidable conclusion that what we are confronted with is a kind of "sick fantasy" typical of Bulgarian nationalists: namely, given their conviction that Macedonians and a Macedonian nation do not exist, they justify the absence or scarcity of a Bulgarian consciousness in Macedonia by pointing to an invisible reign of terror which exists only in their minds.
We are convinced that each and every minority in Bulgaria would give a lot to be able to enjoy the opportunities and rights which the law provides for minorities in the Republic of Macedonia. In Macedonia not only is the Framework Agreement (which in Bulgaria exists only on paper) implemented consistently, but every minority which comprises 20% of the population in either the whole country or in a municipality obtains the right to have its language treated as an official language at the corresponding level of government, as well as certain special rights contained in this same Agreement.
In contrast to the mere five minutes of news in Turkish on one television station in Bulgaria, in Macedonia there is one television station devoted entirely to minorities, as well as a series of programs supported by the state on other television and radio stations, etc. While in Macedonia education to secondary school level is carried out in the language of the minorities, in Bulgaria the study of one’s mother tongue is provided as an optional subject for only three minorities and even then text books have still not been provided for this purpose. In this regard, we need not mention the political representation accorded at the national and local level to minorities in Macedonia.
It is pathetic that the representative of a country such as Bulgaria, which treats its minorities in such a negative fashion and in which recent governments held the official view that no minorities exist in Bulgaria, should speak so arrogantly and insultingly of a country like Macedonia. It would be much better if Dzambaski and the remaining Bulgarian MPs were to go to Macedonia and learn how minorities are respected and have their rights safeguarded, rather than making provocative and insulting statements about Macedonia, as has been their practice to date.
The difference between mister Dzambaski and the remaining Bulgarian MPs is not one of substance, however he is more sincere and open in what he says, while the others understand very well that by making such similar absurd statements they will compromise not only their inhumane cause and primitive ideology, but themselves as well in the eyes of their colleagues. This is precisely why those other MPs try to conceal their politics of negation under the guise of slogans deemed more acceptable in Europe. An example of that is the insistence on “joint celebrations” of important historical events with which they seek to impose Bulgaria’s national mythology on Macedonia. It is not by chance that Bulgaria does not want any other country to attend these events apart from Macedonia and Bulgaria and has never to date sought the holding of joint celebrations with any other neighbouring country, except Macedonia. It has not done so because its demand is inspired by intentions which are neither humane or European; namely the desire to present the history of Macedonia as Bulgarian, as part and parcel of the continuing Bulgarian anti-Macedonian campaign which began during the time of the Communist dictatorship and to deny the existence of a Macedonian nation, language, culture, history, minority, etc, regardless of the fact that it did in fact recognise them in the past. Dzambaski’s letter is a perfect illustration of this approach.
Moreover, the slogans employed by Bulgarian Euro MPs as part of their rhetoric in the past decade are equally fallacious and delusional. They speak of “good neighbourliness”, but take that to mean the obligation on the part of Macedonia to satisfy every Bulgarian desire and whim; they complain about an alleged anti-Bulgarian campaign by the Macedonian media, when what they demand in essence is for the Macedonian government to interfere with the freedom of media outlets and to prohibit them from highlighting the dire situation of the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria or to publish articles and reports critical of Bulgaria ( this is precisely what constitutes an “anti-Bulgarian campaign“ for them). The same applies to the absurd matter of the “theft of history” (by which they mean the non-acceptance of Bulgarian national mythology regarding Macedonia), through which, in reality, they demand, under the pretext of an alleged defence of the historical truth, to forcibly curtail the right to freedom of thought and academic research in Macedonia for the benefit of their national dogmas. They seek a new treaty of good neighbourliness with Macedonia which includes the demand that Macedonia renounce its right to defend the Macedonians in Bulgaria and agree to a process of non-reciprocity to its own disadvantage.
By taking advantage of its position as a member of the EU, Bulgaria has forgotten about the support provided by Macedonia for its membership of the EU and has attempted to impose extraordinary and anti-democratic conditions on Macedonia: namely, that she exercise political interference in the area of freedom of the press and other media, freedom of speech and thought, interfere in free academic research, relinquish any opportunity and right to defend the rights of the Macedonian national minority in Bulgaria and to agree to relativise the existence of its own nation.
We would like to bring to your attention the fact that Bulgaria, a member of the EU, herself violates the rights of minorities. The Macedonian minority in Bulgaria is still denied and the registration of Macedonian organizations has been rendered impossible, despite numerous verdicts of the European Court for Human Rights. Moreover, self-determination as a Macedonian in Bulgaria is still treated as an act of national treason and Macedonians are still the objects of unpunished hate speech, sometimes at the highest official levels of government.
We appeal to you to consider and examine our predicament, to defend our rights as Macedonians in Bulgaria, as European citizens who are discriminated against and humiliated by European authorities, instead of heeding the arguments of ultranationalists and people such as Dzambaski whose views are not only highly retrograde, anachronistic and racist but a serious threat to the values which European institutions are founded on.
On behalf of the Macedonian national minority in Bulgaria,
OMO ”Ilinden”- PIRIN, member of the European Free Alliance Presidency:
Angel Bezev, Georgi Hristov, Ivan SIngartijski, Aleksandar Spasov, Stojan Mechkarov, Krum Filatov, Stojko Stojkov
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OMO “Ilinden” - PIRIN is a political party supporting the rights of the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria. It has been banned since 2000, despite a 2005 European Court of Human Rights Judgement ruling that the decision was a violation of the European Convention on Human Rights. For more information please visit www.omoilindenpirin.org.
Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) has been active on human and national rights issues for Macedonians and other oppressed peoples since 1986. For more information: www.mhrmi.org, www.twitter.com/mhrmi, www.facebook.com/mhrmi, [email protected], +1 416-850-7125.
Established in 1984, the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee (AMHRC) is a non-governmental organisation that informs and advocates before international institutions, governments and broader communities about combating racism and promoting human rights. Our aspiration is to ensure that Macedonian communities and other excluded groups throughout the world, are recognised, respected and afforded equitable treatment. For more information please visit www.macedonianhr.org.au, email [email protected] or via +61 3 9329 8960.Comment
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North American Museums Perpetuate Myth of Greek Ethnic Continuity
North American Museums Perpetuate Myth of Greek Ethnic Continuity
Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) - December 15, 2014
Four North American museums, in association with the Hellenic Ministry of Culture and Sports, have embarked on an ambitious quest to spread the myth of a 5,000 year-old "Greek" culture, including the misappropriation of Macedonian king, Alexander the Great. The exhibition is called "The Greeks – Agamemnon to Alexander the Great" and is currently on display at Pointe-ŕ-Calličre, Montréal and will be followed by displays at the Canadian Museum of History in Gatineau, the Field Museum in Chicago and the National Geographic Museum in Washington D.C. Irresponsibly, the project was sponsored, in part, by the Department of Canadian Heritage and promoted by the Embassy of Canada to Greece.
The Western world's romanticizing of Greece's history has contributed to the perpetuation of the Greek myth of ethnic purity and self-proclaimed superiority and has resulted in the most openly racist country in the Western world. Yet, Western culture has no problem in celebrating Greece as the “cradle of civilization” and “birthplace of democracy”, even though the idea of “Greece” as a unified entity, territorially or culturally, didn’t exist.
Greece's intense propaganda campaign, aimed at convincing the world that the Ancient Macedonians were "Greek", has no basis in historical fact, and is part of Greece's racist policy of denying the existence of Macedonians, present-day, or at any time in history. Greece is the only Western country to deny the existence of any ethnic minorities on its territory, and "proudly" makes claims that its country is "ethnically pure". Racism is so rampant in Greece, that it became the first country since Nazi Germany to elect members of a neo-Nazi party to parliament, 21 members of "Golden Dawn" in fact.
Ironically, until 1988, Greece’s well-documented policy was that Macedonia did not exist, and it violently tried to eradicate its very existence. Then, for fear that it would lose the part of Macedonia that it annexed in 1913, Greece's propaganda machine changed course to claiming that Macedonia's land belongs to them, while the people still do not exist.
The fact that Greece was able to convince North American museums to display and promote such historical inaccuracies as seen in "The Greeks – Agamemnon to Alexander the Great" exhibition, and allow themselves to be used as part of Greece's propaganda campaign is shocking. MHRMI calls for the immediate removal and discontinuation of this display. To make your voices heard, please use the contact information below.
Furthermore, MHRMI calls on Macedonians to voice their concerns about the inclusion of any historically inaccurate information included in North American libraries and schools, and to demand the teaching of Ancient Macedonian history in an accurate and unbiased fashion. In 2009, the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee and Macedonian Human Rights Movement International added to this effort by publishing a research paper on Macedonian history (www.mhrmi.org/news/2009/june09_e.pdf) which gained a tremendous amount of support by international scholars.
Contact information:
Pointe-ŕ-Calličre, Musée d'archéologie et d'histoire de Montréal
350 Place Royale
Corner of de la Commune
Old Montréal, Quebec, Canada H2Y 3Y5
Tel: 514-872-9150
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.pacmusee.qc.ca
Twitter: @PointeaCalliere
Canadian Museum of History
100 Laurier Street
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada K1A 0M8
Tel: 1-800-555-5621
Website: www.historymuseum.ca
Twitter: @CanMusHistory
The Field Museum
1400 S. Lake Shore Drive, Chicago, IL 60605-2496
Tel: 312-922-9410
Website: www.fieldmuseum.org
Twitter: @fieldmuseum
National Geographic Museum
1145 17th Street, NW (17th and M)
Washington, DC 20036
Tel: 202–857-7700
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.ngmuseum.org
Twitter: @NatGeoExhibit
Department of Canadian Heritage
15 Eddy Street
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada K1A 0M5
Tel: 819-997-0055
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.pch.gc.ca
Twitter: @CdnHeritage
Embassy of Canada to Greece
4, Ioannou Gennadiou Street,
115 21 Athens, Greece
Tel.: 30-210-7273400
Email: [email protected]
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Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) has been active on human and national rights issues for Macedonians and other oppressed peoples since 1986. For more information: www.mhrmi.org, twitter.com/mhrmi, facebook.com/mhrmi, [email protected], 1-416-850-7125.Comment
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Please note, Macedonian history (from North American institutions) are derived and researched from autonomous sources and independent of Hellenic authority or influence.Originally posted by MHRMI View Post
e.g. From Britannica (an independent source)
"The cultural links of prehistoric Macedonia were mainly with Greece and Anatolia. A people who called themselves Macedonians are known from about 700 bce, when they pushed eastward from their home on the Haliacmon (Aliákmon) River under the leadership of King Perdiccas I and his successors.
This dispute hinges in part on the question of whether this people spoke a form of Greek before the 5th century bce; it is known, however, that by the 5th century bce the Macedonian elite had adopted the Greek language and had also forged a unified kingdom.
Ancient Macedonian history and Greece's current policy regarding the Macedonian question should be exclusive. Ancient Macedonian history is unyielding and cannot be swayed.Comment
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On the contrary, it is more obscure than you lead us to believe. What is less obscure however is that the Hellenes considered the Macedonians as a foreign people.Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
It's a bit rich for you to want to separate modern and ancient history, in the context of this thread, considering Greece's official policy endeavours to tie the two together.Comment
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WE SHOULD ALL WRITE TO THOSE EMAILS AND TELL THEM THE TRUTH.The other thing the greeks have not been around for 5000 or even 4000 years thats a big lie.
If people know their history the so called hellenes came on the greek peninsula about 2800 bc.This is the time approximately the greeks got their phonecian alphabet ."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEVComment
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Do you think the museum can raise the price of the ticket due to the exhibition of such e-mails?Originally posted by George S. View Post
Let's do the math. 2000 years from christ and 2800 years before that equals to 4800 years. What's the total in your mathematics?Comment
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