Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI)

[Currency Trader]

. Despite repeated requests you have been unable to provide a single reason why economies in the E.U are going bankrupt.
Are you trying to convince us that you know something about economics, and markets?

Now your also assuming to be an expert in human rights, too?
.

1. Repeated requests? I suggest that you provide those "repeated requests" of yours here with cut'n paste and time stamp when they were requested - That way we will know how truthful you are. Considering your past tendencies to misrepresent information, such as the claim that I'm a member of UMD board, your credibility is not very high.

2. I'm not trying to convince anyone on economics and markets - But should you request a personal debate on the subjects supported by emperical research, I'd gladly fulfill your wish.

3. Yes - Is it causing disturbance in your sex life?



/

[makedonche]

CURRENCY TRADER

Been busy lately, private and professionally.

That's good to hear - keep you from getting into mischief!

Sorry if I haven't gotten back to you. I know I have one previous posting to respond

No problems, we all need to put bread on the table and keep the domestic boss happy!

But as for your above writing, I think its important not to paint the devil on EU's overall ability to manage the union.

In the context of this forum, my ehnicity/identity, human rights etc. I selected Greece as an example of the EU's mismanagement because of that country's attitude and behaviour towards my(ROM's) ethnicity/identity, and also due to EU's views/attitudes/behaviours towards my(ROM's) ethnicity/identity and the lack of support by the EU for human rights of the ROM and Macedonians, by contiuing to support Greece, failing to reprimand Greece for financial mismanagement as well as Greeces' failing to observe the EU's charter on human rights. For me it's obvious who the devil is and who is sustaining the devil- the EU is going to get tarred with the same brush unless it gets it's union and members into line and demonstrates sound management across the board, otherwise "the devil tag" will become more prevalent.

There will be times when one or more black sheeps stray away from the group and the shephard. Such instances can also be the result from unforeseen global crises that affect countries differently.

I agree, there will be times when black sheep will stray, but given the resources and strength of the union I would expect sound management practises to have been in place to deal with them before and not after the fact. It is also true that global crises will have an impact in different ways upon different nations and subsequently different actions/solutions will be required depending on the different circumstances - once again sound management systems would deal with this, it is patently obvious the EU is operating under "crisis management" instead of predetermined best practice systems and procedures - no?

But in the aforementioned case, indeed EU regulators or those responsible for supervision of standards were asleep at the switch. This will serve, hopefully, as an important lesson that anyone who tries to deceive with bogus standards will get punished. However, there are many more countries that do behave well and are part of the EU management.

Agreed, EU regulators/those responsible did fall asleep at the switch - this demonstrates that lack of appropriate management skills and adds weight to the argument that the EU may not be such a good union to join - notwithstanding all it's benefits! Only time will demonstrate whether the lessons have been learnt and the bogus standards have been punished - to date I don't see any real evidence of this - which again adds more weight not to join the union. Yes there are many more countries that do behave well as part of the EU management and if we look at those countries now we notice rumblings of dissatisfation that they are going to be forced to bear the pain of the non complying countries and they are beginning to question their membership/participation.
I would rather Macedonia learns to stand on it's own two feet before it tries to run with the pack - particularly a pack that insists on infringing on the basic human rights of the country as a precurser to joining the pack.

[AMHRC]

AMHRC & MHRMI





So the meaning of "best interests" is applied on a global basis and not exclusively EU, even though the press release talks only about EU. Ok I understand that you believe that the Macedonian society should think for itself when it comes to the membership.

But given the press statement "EU's inability to manage its economic affairs properly", are you saying that Macedonia should not join the EU institution based on your specific statement?



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No, that's incorrect - To be clear, I'm supporting Macedonia to join EU for stronger trade growth and investment prospects. This, however, does not mean Macedonia will not have a future without EU membership. The question that arises, what kind of economic future and what level of foreign investment can Macedonia really attract if they do not join EU? Will foreign private investors limit their investments or simply favor other new member states ahead of Macedonia given a non-membership status?

Experience and findings from prior new member states (Central and eastern European states) has shown that increased trade came partly against EU association, which had credibility enhancing effects.
This occurred well before accession because it increased the international community’s confidence in the future political and economic development of new member states, ensured improvements in their legal framework as part of the EU harmonization process, and raised expectations of future GDP convergence with the EU. All these factors increased the appeal of the new member states for foreign investors and attracted foreign direct investment (FDI) inflows.

Findings also point (all other things being equal) that real exports among new member states tend to grow by about 2 percentage points per year faster after the EU accession than before it. This suggests that the FDI-related effects on trade tend to be stronger than the pre-entry foreign trade liberalization effects.

Studies have also highlighted that new member states saw increased volume of agricultural trade as part of the EU enlargement in 2004. This is very relevant for Macedonia given the importance of agriculture to its economy and international trade. In this sector, Macedonia has the potential to benefit from EU accession to a greater extent than did the more industrialized new member states.

However, to exploit this opportunity Macedonia must invest in food processing and raise the quality of agricultural output to meet EU standards. This will allow it to convert its agricultural commodities into competitive foodstuffs, generating higher value added in the economy.



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For Macedonia not to join EU they will have to show enough progress that the citizens living in Macedonia will not feel “alone” and outside of a union that all or most Balkan nations may join. Should Macedonia progress with much better living standards and income per capita than new member states from the Balkans, then the threat of political instability and civil unrest may take the backseat. Just to reiterate, I’m not saying that Macedonia cannot progress without joining EU. However, if key economic indicators such as high unemployment rate do not improve significantly, while other Balkan nations join EU on improved economic conditions that are better than Macedonia, then there will be serious questions.



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There is no counter argument to that.


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I thought you were talking about “EU's inability to manage its economic affairs properly”, as additional basis to question the joining of EU. That is why I’m asking whether it was a mistake for all other 27 EU nations to join the union? After all, your press release is now focusing on how EU manages its economic affairs – Ok, I take it that you are not willing to make a judgment on the decision of the other 27 nations that joined EU, but only for Macedonia, which is kind of inconsistent.



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During my recent stay in Macedonia I had interesting discussions with a variety of people. One argument that caught my attention from an individual was that Macedonia needed “someone” from the outside to oversee their behavior or implementation of reforms and practices. In essence, this person felt that the country cannot do it alone as he feared that the society could not police itself properly. There was a sense of anxiety that other Balkan nations, who previously were behind Macedonia, were now ahead of Macedonia.


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I’m still at loss at your suggestion that EU mismanagement has caused a secondary group, (such as Ireland and Bulgaria) that now brought the economic structures of the EU to the brink of destruction. How has Bulgaria caused the economic structures of EU to the brink of destruction?? What specific imbalances does Bulgaria have which is the fault of EU mismanagement? Or for that matter Ireland?

While countries are responsible for their actions they are not isolated from major external events, including Bulgaria and Ireland. One cannot assume that EU as a union should manage its economic affairs totally shielded from global crises.


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Well, let me clarify it – I merely highlighted the fact that member states have large freedom to manage their economic affairs. In reality, it should be “trust-but-verify”, as Ronald Reagan once quipped. EU should indeed have controls and verify that countries do manage economic affairs according to agreed standards/regulations. This has been the shortfall for certain countries, like Greece.



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If we’re talking about timely responsibility, a proactive EU management would have followed up on standards. That’s where EU is at fault – But taking action now and not later can make a difference depending on how serious the situation is. Secondly, one should not assume that actions taken anyway will materialize in good standards as experience and know-how may be lacking.


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So far as we know, the Greek state has been in its own league in-terms of state accounting, financial dealings, fiscal management, politicians and people – As for your claim of my “contradictory argument”; I disagree – The Greek case is an extreme one and I would look at the big picture and the total number of EU members for clues on reform, not just one or a few. You’re not really objective here.



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Italy may have a self-centered prime minister and some inefficiently working state and private sectors, but I’m not aware of any deceptive state accounting or financial dealings. Anyhow, as for reforms, Italy is being reported to take prudent fiscal management against recent EU reform calls.

You really want an example - USA and Japan. The first country is already bankrupt and is only afloat due to its borrowing capabilities that may end one day. Drum day is August 2nd.


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Reform within a country is one thing – quality and experience is quite another story. Not saying it cannot be done, but we can also not assume per default that reforms equal quality. Would you have preferred Macedonia to be reformed with or without EU standards?

Regards

CT,

We shall keep our response brief and it shall be final. This is because we made a very uncontroversial and reasonable assertion in our press statement, as we shall explain towards the end of this final response. However, just to clear up some things:

1. Nothing in your reply encourages us to change our central argument that a country can make economic progress without EU membership and that economic relativity is a reality both inside and outside the EU.

2. The phrase “global interests” was in reference to Macedonia’s particular interests taken as a whole, including its identity rights.

3. We made it clear to you already, that the argument about the EU’s inability to manage its economic affairs is an ADDITIONAL argument in support of the general underlying premise that it is unacceptable for Macedonia to join the EU at the expense of its identity rights. The EU has not moved on this and there is no reason to think that it ever will. The fact that you agree there is no counter argument to the point about the destruction of Macedonia’s identity rights, makes some of the economic aspects of this discussion, rather insignificant.

4. The “experience” and studies you mention in support of the supposed benefits of EU membership, are not anywhere as clear as you suggest and are not in fact accepted by many experts or by many responsible people in the countries in question.

5. Yes there will be serious questions if Macedonia does not improve the management of its economy and it is time for all levels of Macedonian society to begin taking responsibility for this. It is also time for the average citizen in Macedonia to recognise his/her complicity in this – as we have already pointed out. This can be done whether it is in the EU or not.

6. Our argument on Macedonia and the EU is not inconsistent, as you claim, it is based on the very uncontroversial statement TODAY (as a support for the more important underlying premise that Macedonia cannot surrender its identity rights), that the EU has shown an inability to manage its economic affairs properly. As we pointed out in a post earlier in this thread, numerous qualified experts from both the left and right of centre have made this argument. Indeed, a controversial statement, would have been “We think that it is imperative for Macedonia to join the EU because of its excellent economic management skills”.

7. We do not agree with you on Italy; Italy has not shown consistent ethical management and qualified commentators have in fact made this argument. Lastly, it is you that is not being objective about Greece, you in fact, are being as un-objective about Greece as the EC/EU have shown themselves to be for decades. It has been a member of the institutions in question for decades and if anything, it has gone from bad to worse.

AMHRC.

[makedonche]

Currency Trader
Hi CT, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this article:

Economists at Bank of America Merrill Lynch (BAC) reckon it would take an additional €700 billion to cover a bond crisis in Italy and Spain until 2014. RBS says the fund needs €2 trillion. “This tendency to undersize otherwise good initiatives has been a recurrent feature of European policies,” says Francesco Garzarelli, chief interest-rate strategist at Goldman Sachs (GS).

Source:- Bloomberg Businessweek.

[TrueMacedonian]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/08/26/pol-jim-karygiannis.html

MP Karygiannis accused of berating civil servants
By Laura Payton, CBC News

Posted: Aug 26, 2011 5:09 PM ET

Controversial Liberal MP Jim Karygiannis is the focus of complaints from Canadian government officials over allegedly verbally abusive behaviour, CBC News has learned.

Immigration officials have complained that Karygiannis, the MP for Ontario's Scarborough-Agincourt riding, has used what they call unparliamentary language on multiple occasions in dealing with staff and takes an aggressive tone with civil servants.

Reached by CBC News, Karygiannis said he suspects there is an orchestrated campaign to smear him.

"I've had a good working relationship with the civil servants going back to 1988. I can probably get things done that a lot of other members [of Parliament] cannot get done because I contact them and say I need your help, and the help is always there," he said.

"You don't get re-elected time and time again because of the work that you do if you don't look after your constituents. And people will not look after you and not be helping you if you're not nice to them."

A spokeswoman for Citizenship and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney wouldn't confirm the complaints. She pointed to an incident at a House of Commons committee meeting in 2009 when Karygiannis accused a departmental official of not wanting to admit black immigrants into Canada.

"We cannot release details of Mr. Karygiannis’s interactions with departmental officials without his consent," Candice Malcolm wrote in an email.

"It is already public that Minister Kenney wrote a letter to the chair of the Citizenship and Immigration committee after Mr. Karygiannis was verbally abusive toward CIC officials when they appeared to answer questions.

"We expect anyone dealing with civil servants, especially members of Parliament, to show the same level of respect and decorum with which they would want to be treated. Yelling and/or use of profane language toward civil servants by members of Parliament is not acceptable.

History of controversial remarks

Karygiannis, the Liberal party's multiculturalism critic, is hosting 19 cultural groups this weekend for meetings in Ottawa with Liberal MPs to talk about issues they face.

But some major cultural groups in Canada are boycotting the meetings and demanding Karygiannis be forced out of his portfolio, alleging he holds controversial views that make him unsuitable for the job.

The groups point to statements made by Karygiannis that they say make him an offensive pick.

CBC News has obtained a letter from B'Nai Brith Canada, a leading Jewish group, as well as press releases from Macedonian, Turkish and Chinese groups, demanding Liberal Interim Leader Bob Rae replace Karygiannis in his role.

Rae wasn't available Friday for interviews.

The letter and statements are, in part, in support of complaints by the Macedonian Human Rights Movement International, who noted a 2011 event in Toronto where Karygiannis used a derogatory word to describe Macedonians.

Karygiannis says he was referring to a term that's used in Greece to describe Macedonians from the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

"The Macedonians of FYROM in Greece are referred to as Skopjans. That's a statement which is true. That's how they're referred to," Karygiannis said.

He's also championed causes that have split cultural communities, including successfully pushing Parliament to pass a motion that "acknowledges the Armenian genocide of 1915 and condemns this act as a crime against humanity." Karygiannis says he's willing to sit down with anyone and talk.

"If they don't like it, then they will say OK, let's do a number on Jim. Well, that's fine. But my motto is respect, accept, celebrate and embrace."

Anita Bromberg, general counsel for B'nai Brith Canada, says the organization is concerned about some of the positions Karygiannis has taken.

"Our point today is that multiculturalism is a call for a united front, for bringing communities together ... where he's been so divisive in the positions he's taken, then we are suggesting to the Liberal Party that they reconsider whether he's the best representative of putting forth that aim."

[George S.]

marygiannis is simply echoing the greek government.If he was in greece but he is in canada & he needed to refer to macedonians with respect for who they are.He realizes what he's done but needs to address it in a way that it's not that derogatory.He beleives in toleration & embracing.If he doesn't really emphazise the liberal values then he should be booted out of the party.He has deeply offended the macedonian segment in canada & others throughout the diaspora.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Racist maggot.

[MHRMI]

MHRMI and AMHRC Reiterate Demand That Macedonia End Name Negotiations

MHRMI and AMHRC Reiterate Demand That Macedonia End Name Negotiations

Toronto, Canada and Melbourne, Australia (September 8, 2011) - On the occasion of the Republic of Macedonia's 20th anniversary of its independence, Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) and the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee (AMHRC) reiterate our demand that Macedonia immediately cease negotiations over its name.

It is a disgrace that Macedonia, by participating in the negotiations, is violating its own most basic human right, that of self-identification. It is reprehensible that the Western world, despite having recognized Macedonia, is insisting that Macedonia change its name.

MHRMI and AMHRC initiated the Our Name is Macedonia campaign in July 2010, an ad campaign which demands an end to the negotiations, and which has gained overwhelming support from Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia and throughout the world.

As stated in the Our Name is Macedonia campaign, "We are winning. Over 130 countries have recognized Macedonia, including four of the five permanent UN Security Council members. We have the power to end this. Stop negotiating our own name".

MHRMI and AMHRC demand that Macedonia vehemently defend our name and immediately end the name negotiations. Furthermore, we demand:

• an end to the "temporary reference" of "FYROM" or "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
• that Macedonia revert to the original flag
• that Macedonia withdraws from the 1995 Interim Accord

Our organizations also:

• condemn every Macedonian government for capitulating to Greek racism and to the United States and Western Europe and continuing the name negotiations
• condemn the US government and Western European governments for threatening to withdraw "support" for Macedonia and demanding that it changes its name

Finally, MHRMI and AMHRC call on every Macedonian organization and individual to sign on to the Our Name is Macedonia campaign.

https://www.mhrmi.org/our_name_is_macedonia

Silence is not an option. Our Name is Macedonia.

###

Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) has been active on human and national rights issues for Macedonians and other oppressed peoples since 1986. For more information: www.mhrmi.org, twitter.com/mhrmi, facebook, [email protected], 1-416-850-7125.

Established in 1984 the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee (AMHRC) is a non governmental organisation that advocates before governments, international institutions and broader communities about combating discrimination and promoting basic human rights. Our aspiration is to ensure that Macedonian communities and other excluded groups throughout the world are recognised, respected and afforded equitable treatment. For more information please visit www.macedonianhr.org.au, or contact AMHRC by email [email protected] or via +61 3 93298960.

[makedonche]

I reiterate my support for these 2 outstanding Macedonian organisations!

[Bill77]

I reiterate my support for these 2 outstanding Macedonian organisations!

Ditto


Good timing on this Macedonian independence day.

[Risto the Great]

Our organizations also:

• condemn every Macedonian government for capitulating to Greek racism and to the United States and Western Europe and continuing the name negotiations

All good, but the above comment is especially good. What a shame that 20 years after independence these are the issues we are addressing.

[Soldier of Macedon]

That is an excellent PR. Congratulations to MHRMI and AMHRC for telling it how it is, you do all self-respecting Macedonians proud.

[Vangelovski]

Good work AMHRC!

[Makedonska_Kafana]

being proactive helps us expand our circle of influence, thanks

- world macedonian diaspora

[Volk]

great!