Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI)

[Currency Trader]

CT, you should take your own advice and refrain from commenting on issue you have no idea about...which includes just about everything.

Vangelovski,

I don't mean to offend you, but you come across as some young kid who spends lots of time on internet forum acting as some boy scout.

Did I not encourage you on multiple occassions to take up the challange and relocate yourself to Rep of Macedonia to become a serious politician? Show them how politics should be done instead of sitting on the internet.




/

[George S.]

CT you"ve been on the chilli peppers again e MHRMI/AMHRC.They are macedonian & have everyright to comment on macedonia's of impending disaster once it joins the eu.You don't even contemplate macedonia's name change prior to entering the eu that if enters.Will be disastrous to it's identity.The damage will be far worse than what benefits it gets.Did the eu offer anything special to induce macedonia to change their name .The answer is no.
We shouldn't take any notice of them(eu) Macedonia is doing fine without the eu thank you.
e MHRMI/AMHRC has everyright to comment on the name change which is absurd.Also entering the eu has an effect on all of macedonia both internal & external.You are way out of your depth commenting as you have really ignored the human element.Were all waiting for the eu to exlode & your talking shit about having to join it.
It's like the rats desrting a sinking ship you are asking people to join the eu sinking ship.Remember the titanic ct it was unsinkable well to you the eu is unsinkable.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski,

I don't mean to offend you, but you come across as some young kid who spends lots of time on internet forum acting as some boy scout.

Did I not encourage you on multiple occassions to take up the challange and relocate yourself to Rep of Macedonia to become a serious politician? Show them how politics should be done instead of sitting on the internet.

CT, what makes you think I just sit on the internet?

You failed to explain to us on the forum why relocating to Macedonia was the "ultimate moral challange" as you put it at the time. But, seeing as you think that anyone who comments on Macedonian affairs should move to Macedonia and "show them how its done", and seeing as YOU feel it necessary to comment on Macedonian affairs, perhaps YOU should LEAD BY EXAMPLE!?

If posting on the internet is so childish (in the negative sense), then why are you posting on the forum?

[makedonche]

CT
Hi CT long time no hear!
Your below quote clearly demonstrates the EU's mismanagement:-

Lets be fair and objective, Greece is in its own deception league. No other country has so flagrantly lied time-after-time about its state accounting. Not to mention corrupt and irresponsible politicians and people.

The obvious reason for my comments is that the EU failed to act or take appropriate measures once it had discovered Greece had "cooked the books" to actually get into the EU. It then failed to take any action once it discovered Greece had gone behind their backs to borrow more funds, and has not taken the appropriate measures since discovering that Greece is well over it's head in financial mismanagement. This demonstrates the EU's inability to mange the union and the finances of the union - don't you think?

[George S.]

Just to enter the eu does it makes sense to change one's identity.It's a complete joke ct & you know it only if macedonia is silly enough to do it.

[TrueMacedonian]

Just to enter the eu does it makes sense to change one's identity.It's a complete joke ct & you know it only if macedonia is silly enough to do it.

It seems Macedonia has alot of silly politicians George - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...119#post106119

[julie]

...and NGO's like the UMD who falsely purport to represent the global Macedonian diaspora

[AMHRC]

Correct me if I'm wrong here. But AMHRC & MHRMI has been for EU economic integration until (at least) last year before the launch of "My name" campaign last year.

Is it your stated policy, now, that EU is NOT good for Macedonia due to the "inability" to handle its economic affairs?

Yes, EU is not just Germany, France, England, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Bulgaria and Greece - EU is ALSO most central, eastern and northern European countries, including the Baltic states. About 27 countries in total. Some countries are doing better than others but that's only normal. Various countries have different time progress.

Its also important to understand that EU countries have had their own responsibility to handle their state budgets and fiscal discipline, just like other nations such as U.S (Structurally/financially sound?) or Japan. Moreover, its equally important to understand how and what has caused country specific imbalances. Not every EU country you mention is entirely due to EU "mismanaging" its economic affairs.

You mention Bulgaria and Ireland. Can you shed some specific points to what exactly is being the fault of EU mismanagement here?



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Granted that there has been poor enforcement or supervision of standards and regulations. However, it appears that law makers and politicians are taking the issue seriously enough to deal with the structural problem. The individual countries you mention as the "second" category are also taking actions on EU recommendations or by their own will.



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If anything, its the quality of technical reform that could make the difference. However, I wouldn't expect a flawless "no-connection" culture as Macedonia is still a very small country of 2 million people where everyone (almost) knows each other. Some Macedonian people living in RoM have a different view of themselves and their capabilities. They see EU as some watch dog against some corrupt Macedonian politicians. They don't think the country can do it all by itself, at least not in this life time.

At any rate, new candidate countries are being guided by EU of how to make reforms. This guidence has moved the country forward. The membership status is the final accomplishment that most other EU nations have decided to join.


Are you suggesting that Macedonia should go at it all alone?

Secondly, do you consider that all other EU nations that gained EU membership was a mistake made?



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You cite Greece as your primary example of the difficulty by external institutions to export reformations. What other examples can you cite for history?

Lets be fair and objective, Greece is in its own deception league. No other country has so flagrantly lied time-after-time about its state accounting. Not to mention corrupt and irresponsible politicians and people.

However, you seem to suggest, if I'm not wrong, that no member states have managed to import reforms and recommendations by EU. Is that what you are suggesting?

Obviously, a country that can reform by itself to the point that it leads to meaningful development, is a big plus - but that does not mean a country cannot import reformation or guidelines from the outside and still do well for the long haul.


Thanks for your response!

Regards.


/

CT,

It has generally been our policy to encourage Macedonian society to think for itself in terms of its best interests and to decide matters such as EU membership for itself on such a basis. However, we take the phrase "best interests" more 'globally' than many others. The EU is asking Macedonia to change its name in order to gain membership, that is unacceptable and a clear indication that the EU does not function even remotely as it should - according to its own rules.

Yes some countries in the EU are doing better than others; however your premise seems to be that in order to do well, Macedonia must join the EU. Yet obviously a country can do well also without joining the EU and no that does not mean “it has to do it alone”, in the sense that Macedonia and Macedonians will indeed continue to participate in both importing and exporting; in receiving foreign investments and in making some foreign investments, whether they join the EU or not. Relativity is a reality both inside and outside the EU. Our premise is that if membership to such an institution needs to be based on the destruction of one’s identity rights, then the alternatives need to be explored and developed. Again, your premise appears to be that Macedonia has no future in terms of economic sustainability without EU membership. That is obviously not the case and as for the other countries that have joined the EU and whether that was a mistake – that is for them to decide; we are talking about the specific and unreasonable sacrifices that Macedonia is being asked to make.

Technical reforms in and of themselves, will NOT make the difference alone. They will help, but a society strongly based on a culture of “vrski” will still make a mockery of such reform in practice. It is not just Macedonia’s politicians that operate this way, it is a large chunk of the society as a whole – the corrupt politicians are but a reflection of this. People from all levels of society in Macedonia need to recognise this and serious educational programs need to be implemented that will change the behaviour of succeeding generations, in practice not just theory. And yes it will take a life time at least, to make these changes.

The points you make about the other countries and the mismanagement of their economic affairs proves our point that ultimately it is up to the country in question – whether it is a member of the EU or not; including Ireland and Bulgaria.

Then you mention “poor enforcement” in the context of the EU as 'policeman'; it makes little sense in the context of the specifics that are governing our current discussion, to say that countries are responsible for their own mismanagement, as you do and then to talk about “poor enforcement”. Whatever actions a country like Greece is now taking, would likely have had to be taken anyway, whether it was in the EU or not, because of its terrible standards in practice. You say that Greece is in a league of its own, but that is not the case by your own contradictory argument that the EU is good for reform – Greece has been a member of the EC/EU for decades. Another example? Italy!

No I am not suggesting that other countries have not been able to IMPORT reform, I am suggesting that external institutions generally cannot export it, unless there is a strong desire for it from within – the main impetus for reform needs to come from within and a country can do this without being a member of the EU.

AMHRC.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Great response AMHRC.

[Pelister]

MHRMI & AMHRC,

You've been doing fine work specializing in your core area of human rights issues and keeping track of statements pertaining to human rights. In regards to Ms Clinton's statements, you are once again focusing on the human rights issue, the area of specialized expertise.

But the statement of how EU manages its economic affairs is in my opinion out of your specialized area and unfortunate. It should not have been in the press release. MHRMI & AMHRC reputation and core knowledge is within human rights, not how economic affairs should be handled, or whether the econmic affairs of EU is good or bad for Rep. of Macedonia.

That is unless you are now opening up another front of specialized interest/knowledge/branch of how economic affairs should be handled within unions or states.

The core purpose of this press release (as I understand it) is how Ms Clinton expressed herself, in such way, that it could be interpretated as double standard - Your finests job is to be a human rights organization.



Regards from a hot Rep. of Macedonia.

/

As advertised. Adding nothing, except more cryptic distortion devoid of any meaningful context. Your posts here over the last 6 months have clearly demonstrated that you are not competent to be 'talking up' the E.U institution, in any way. You are entirely incompetent in the area of economics, that much is very clear. Despite repeated requests you have been unable to provide a single reason why economies in the E.U are going bankrupt. Are you trying to convince us that you know something about economics, and markets? Now your also assuming to be an expert in human rights, too?

I would advise you to suck it up, and quit while your still miles behind the rest of us.

[Vangelovski]

Your premise appears to be that Macedonia has no future in terms of economic sustainability without EU membership.

That's the Yugoslav coming out of CT. Back in the day, the Denko Maleski's of the world were crying out that Macedonians will starve to death if we secede from Yugoslavia!

[George S.]

ct how do you know that macedonia will change a name that will suit the greeks??Someone said the name issue is unsolvable.

[Onur]

Macedonia`s entry to the EU would be it`s own demise. That would be something inevitable. This is not something unique to the Macedonia either. Any country with below ~10 million population and without a competitive economy in European level would have same destiny after they become EU member. Same thing happened to all the former USSR countries too.

Eurocrats in Brussels always in favor of EU`s expansion to these kind of countries cuz this is vital to their federal Europe dreams. Countries like Macedonia can only be a labor stock for western European countries and a free market for their products. What they simply do is; lure people from these relatively poorer countries, let them work in western European industry, then sell the products they manufactured in Germany, France to these poorer countries again. So, in the end, it is you who worked, produced and then it is your kinsmen who will consume it but it is only them who got all the benefit of this circle.

If Macedonia would enter EU, then this circle of doom would be inevitable cuz people would absolutely have no reason to stay in Macedonia and work for their own country. Also, don't forget that you would be subject to anti-nationalistic, pro-European propaganda to further accelerate this.

Read these opinions from Bulgaria and Hungary;

The Hungarian Presidency of the European Union has ended. It is on this occasion that we asked Csanád Szegedi, MEP of The Movement for a Better Hungary about his appraisal of the past half year and of Hungary's EU membership.

On 1 May 2011 it had been seven years since Hungary joined the European Union. What do you think these seven years have given to Hungarians?

To put it briefly, seven hard years. Seven years ago a great number of people thought that welfare state that had been praised to the skies behind the Iron Curtain would come true in the very moment of our entering the gates of the European Union. Unemployment would disappear, the economy would recover, crime - in parallel - would decrease and wages would rise to English or French levels. It was not by chance that so many believed in this as every single parliamentary party would go parroting this while subsiding into silence when questions about the threats preying on vulnerable and defenceless Hungarian economy and their social impacts were raised.

By now it has been proved that these parties have deceived and deliberately misled the voters, since food and fuel prices and utility bills may well reach or sometimes even exceed western levels, we have slumped to the standards of the Balkans in terms of wages and unemployment rate. Public safety too have ceased to exist. Our agriculture and processing industries have been systematically smashed since under the pretext of a sort of great European hobnobbing they had lured in multinational hyenas with tax incentives who then flooded our markets with their poor quality products, forcing quality-seeking small and medium-sized Hungarian entrepreneurs into a disadvantageous competition. It is quite clear that it is was not the lofty ideals that made the EU urge Hungary to join. Rather, it simply wanted a market for its products, orders for its companies and, of course, cheap labour force. In short, with the help of a line of subservient Hungarian governments it has carried out the economic colonization of Hungary. That is what the mentality of ’dare to be small’, originally voiced by the socialists.

20/07/2011

http://www.jobbik.com/jobbik-announcements/3204.html

Bulgaria Total EU Outcast, Lacks National Vision

Bulgaria has no strategic vision whatsoever for its development within the realities of the EU, according to Ahmed Dogan.

According to Dogan, who spoke Friday at a forum in Sofia organized by the Stetan Stambolov Leadership Institute, Bulgaria is about to become part of a "team C" of EU member states, i.e. the ones that are technically EU outcasts.

He thinks that the European Union is facing a "crisis of tolerance" as far as intra-EU balancing between the various member states is concerned, and that through the apportioning of the EU budget, the European Commission is about to divide the EU into an "A team and a B team", and even a "C team" where Bulgaria will be placed.

"We have been in the EU for 5 years. Before that, we found excuses that we want to join NATO first, and then the EU. Even today, everything that we associate with EU membership boils down to some kinds of funding and subsidies, or money for our infrastructure. We have no strategic vision. Bulgaria is a part of a bigger entity, and we need a thoroughly different methodology for drafting a new vision for our country," Dogan declared.

"When the nation and the state have no defined priorities about the development of the country, there is no way of talking about priorities in the development of science. The priorities of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences must be a reflection of the national development priorities – both in the economic and in the spiritual realm. And who knows Bulgaria's priorities? Can anybody tell me what they are, especially in terms of the economy in the EU context?" Dogan asked rhetorically.

“The Bulgarian society has not experienced its necessary spiritual catharsis yet. We are not aware of who we are and what we want. We want to be Europeans a priori,” he said.

“Unfortunately, in the past 20 years, the Bulgarian intellectual elite shut itself off, and encapsulated itself. It was just an observer of the process of creation and establishment of leaders through the mass media. This role of the observer has a very high price to be paid. The intellectual elite needs to be very active, and, in the very least, it needs to define Bulgaria's place in the European cultural, economic, multicultural, and administrative space. Europe's big aim is to create a united entity but at the moment this is just a project because it is neither united, nor an entity. The Bulgarian intellectual elite needs to have reserve options for all possible models of development of the country,” Dogan elaborated.

July 8, 2011, Friday

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=130049

This is what you are supposed and actually allowed to be in EU if you are a relatively small country

[Currency Trader]

AMHRC & MHRMI

It has generally been our policy to encourage Macedonian society to think for itself in terms of its best interests and to decide matters such as EU membership for itself on such a basis. However, we take the phrase "best interests" more 'globally' than many others.

So the meaning of "best interests" is applied on a global basis and not exclusively EU, even though the press release talks only about EU. Ok I understand that you believe that the Macedonian society should think for itself when it comes to the membership.

But given the press statement "EU's inability to manage its economic affairs properly", are you saying that Macedonia should not join the EU institution based on your specific statement?



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….your premise seems to be that in order to do well, Macedonia must join the EU.....your premise appears to be that Macedonia has no future in terms of economic sustainability without EU membership

No, that's incorrect - To be clear, I'm supporting Macedonia to join EU for stronger trade growth and investment prospects. This, however, does not mean Macedonia will not have a future without EU membership. The question that arises, what kind of economic future and what level of foreign investment can Macedonia really attract if they do not join EU? Will foreign private investors limit their investments or simply favor other new member states ahead of Macedonia given a non-membership status?

Experience and findings from prior new member states (Central and eastern European states) has shown that increased trade came partly against EU association, which had credibility enhancing effects.
This occurred well before accession because it increased the international community’s confidence in the future political and economic development of new member states, ensured improvements in their legal framework as part of the EU harmonization process, and raised expectations of future GDP convergence with the EU. All these factors increased the appeal of the new member states for foreign investors and attracted foreign direct investment (FDI) inflows.

Findings also point (all other things being equal) that real exports among new member states tend to grow by about 2 percentage points per year faster after the EU accession than before it. This suggests that the FDI-related effects on trade tend to be stronger than the pre-entry foreign trade liberalization effects.

Studies have also highlighted that new member states saw increased volume of agricultural trade as part of the EU enlargement in 2004. This is very relevant for Macedonia given the importance of agriculture to its economy and international trade. In this sector, Macedonia has the potential to benefit from EU accession to a greater extent than did the more industrialized new member states.

However, to exploit this opportunity Macedonia must invest in food processing and raise the quality of agricultural output to meet EU standards. This will allow it to convert its agricultural commodities into competitive foodstuffs, generating higher value added in the economy.



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….obviously a country can do well also without joining the EU and no that does not mean “it has to do it alone”, in the sense that Macedonia and Macedonians will indeed continue to participate in both importing and exporting; in receiving foreign investments and in making some foreign investments, whether they join the EU or not.

For Macedonia not to join EU they will have to show enough progress that the citizens living in Macedonia will not feel “alone” and outside of a union that all or most Balkan nations may join. Should Macedonia progress with much better living standards and income per capita than new member states from the Balkans, then the threat of political instability and civil unrest may take the backseat. Just to reiterate, I’m not saying that Macedonia cannot progress without joining EU. However, if key economic indicators such as high unemployment rate do not improve significantly, while other Balkan nations join EU on improved economic conditions that are better than Macedonia, then there will be serious questions.



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Our premise is that if membership to such an institution needs to be based on the destruction of one’s identity rights, then the alternatives need to be explored and developed

There is no counter argument to that.


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….countries that have joined the EU and whether that was a mistake – that is for them to decide; we are talking about the specific and unreasonable sacrifices that Macedonia is being asked to make

I thought you were talking about “EU's inability to manage its economic affairs properly”, as additional basis to question the joining of EU. That is why I’m asking whether it was a mistake for all other 27 EU nations to join the union? After all, your press release is now focusing on how EU manages its economic affairs – Ok, I take it that you are not willing to make a judgment on the decision of the other 27 nations that joined EU, but only for Macedonia, which is kind of inconsistent.



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People from all levels of society in Macedonia need to recognise this and serious educational programs need to be implemented that will change the behaviour of succeeding generations, in practice not just theory. And yes it will take a life time at least, to make these changes.

During my recent stay in Macedonia I had interesting discussions with a variety of people. One argument that caught my attention from an individual was that Macedonia needed “someone” from the outside to oversee their behavior or implementation of reforms and practices. In essence, this person felt that the country cannot do it alone as he feared that the society could not police itself properly. There was a sense of anxiety that other Balkan nations, who previously were behind Macedonia, were now ahead of Macedonia.


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The points you make about the other countries and the mismanagement of their economic affairs proves our point that ultimately it is up to the country in question – whether it is a member of the EU or not; including Ireland and Bulgaria.

I’m still at loss at your suggestion that EU mismanagement has caused a secondary group, (such as Ireland and Bulgaria) that now brought the economic structures of the EU to the brink of destruction. How has Bulgaria caused the economic structures of EU to the brink of destruction?? What specific imbalances does Bulgaria have which is the fault of EU mismanagement? Or for that matter Ireland?

While countries are responsible for their actions they are not isolated from major external events, including Bulgaria and Ireland. One cannot assume that EU as a union should manage its economic affairs totally shielded from global crises.


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Then you mention “poor enforcement” in the context of the EU as 'policeman'; it makes little sense in the context of the specifics that are governing our current discussion, to say that countries are responsible for their own mismanagement, as you do and then to talk about “poor enforcement”.

Well, let me clarify it – I merely highlighted the fact that member states have large freedom to manage their economic affairs. In reality, it should be “trust-but-verify”, as Ronald Reagan once quipped. EU should indeed have controls and verify that countries do manage economic affairs according to agreed standards/regulations. This has been the shortfall for certain countries, like Greece.



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Whatever actions a country like Greece is now taking, would likely have had to be taken anyway, whether it was in the EU or not, because of its terrible standards in practice

If we’re talking about timely responsibility, a proactive EU management would have followed up on standards. That’s where EU is at fault – But taking action now and not later can make a difference depending on how serious the situation is. Secondly, one should not assume that actions taken anyway will materialize in good standards as experience and know-how may be lacking.


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You say that Greece is in a league of its own, but that is not the case by your own contradictory argument that the EU is good for reform – Greece has been a member of the EC/EU for decades

So far as we know, the Greek state has been in its own league in-terms of state accounting, financial dealings, fiscal management, politicians and people – As for your claim of my “contradictory argument”; I disagree – The Greek case is an extreme one and I would look at the big picture and the total number of EU members for clues on reform, not just one or a few. You’re not really objective here.



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Another example? Italy!

Italy may have a self-centered prime minister and some inefficiently working state and private sectors, but I’m not aware of any deceptive state accounting or financial dealings. Anyhow, as for reforms, Italy is being reported to take prudent fiscal management against recent EU reform calls.

You really want an example - USA and Japan. The first country is already bankrupt and is only afloat due to its borrowing capabilities that may end one day. Drum day is August 2nd.


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I am suggesting ….the main impetus for reform needs to come from within, and a country can do this without being a member of the EU.

Reform within a country is one thing – quality and experience is quite another story. Not saying it cannot be done, but we can also not assume per default that reforms equal quality. Would you have preferred Macedonia to be reformed with or without EU standards?

Regards

[Currency Trader]

CT
Hi CT long time no hear!
Your below quote clearly demonstrates the EU's mismanagement:-



The obvious reason for my comments is that the EU failed to act or take appropriate measures once it had discovered Greece had "cooked the books" to actually get into the EU. It then failed to take any action once it discovered Greece had gone behind their backs to borrow more funds, and has not taken the appropriate measures since discovering that Greece is well over it's head in financial mismanagement. This demonstrates the EU's inability to mange the union and the finances of the union - don't you think?

Hello Makedonche,

Been busy lately, private and professionally. Sorry if I haven't gotten back to you. I know I have one previous posting to respond - But as for your above writing, I think its important not to paint the devil on EU's overall ability to manage the union. There will be times when one or more black sheeps stray away from the group and the shephard. Such instances can also be the result from unforeseen global crises that affect countries differently. But in the aforementioned case, indeed EU regulators or those responsible for supervision of standards were asleep at the switch. This will serve, hopefully, as an important lesson that anyone who tries to deceive with bogus standards will get punished. However, there are many more countries that do behave well and are part of the EU management.



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