Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI)

[Buktop]

60% of those who used their VOTE on the elections, while more than 50% of the citizens with right to vote haven't voted at all.

Could you predict how many would use their vote on a referendum?

A good example was the unsuccessful referendum in 2003 against the territorial division.

Since you edited this part of your post and I haven't addressed it,

The percentage of voters in the last election was just above 50%, which would make the percentage of non voters less than 50%

I cannot predict accurately the percentage of eligible voters who would participate. Though I can make an educated guess.

The unsuccessful referendum took place in 2004, and I addressed this in my reply to RtG.

[Risto the Great]

I would say that the citizenry of Macedonia could have control of their destiny, if they had more encouragement and less degradation from the diaspora.

"could" scares me a little Buktop!

Can you provide examples of the degradation you speak of?

[Buktop]

"could" scares me a little Buktop!

Can you provide examples of the degradation you speak of?

Why does "could" scare you?

Not to say that every member of the diaspora participates in the belittlement of the citizenry/residents of Macedonia, but I know we have seen it on more than one occasion.

In this case I am speaking of the lack of confidence in their ability to participate in a referendum affirming the constitutional/historical/biblical/natural name of Macedonia. Many here seem to believe that should it come to a referendum, residents of RoM should not be trusted with the preservation of our name.

There are examples that I can site from before this issue, but I find it would only detract from our current conversation.

[Vangelovski]

Many here seem to believe that should it come to a referendum, residents of RoM should not be trusted with the preservation of our name.

You're applying some creative reinterpretation here...as usual.

[Buktop]

You're applying some creative reinterpretation here...as usual.

Should I take Pelister's reaction as the common perception around here, or should I refer to the other threads concerning the referendum?

If you have a differing opinion, and I painted you in the wrong light, please share and I will be happy to retract my statement.

[Vangelovski]

Should I take Pelister's reaction as the common perception around here, or should I refer to the other threads concerning the referendum?

If you have a differing opinion, and I painted you in the wrong light, please share and I will be happy to retract my statement.

Refer to other threads.

[Bratot]

You can call me whatever names you like, it doesn't change the fact that you cannot answer the posed questions.

There was only one question in you previous post that I ignored, so don't make some imagined argumentation.

Lets see your Q:

How is the government influencing people to be pro-name change when their press releases are constantly saying no name change for EU?

Where have they said this?

Show us immediatelly those releases!

Since you edited this part of your post and I haven't addressed it,

The percentage of voters in the last election was just above 50%, which would make the percentage of non voters less than 50%

I cannot predict accurately the percentage of eligible voters who would participate. Though I can make an educated guess.

The unsuccessful referendum took place in 2004, and I addressed this in my reply to RtG.

You are comparing political elections, wheter Parlamentary or Presidental, with a Referendum.

To point out how big difference can we get is the fact that VMRO in the Parlamentary election gained 100.000 less votes than for the Presidental.

[sf.]

Why does "could" scare you?

Not to say that every member of the diaspora participates in the belittlement of the citizenry/residents of Macedonia, but I know we have seen it on more than one occasion.

In this case I am speaking of the lack of confidence in their ability to participate in a referendum affirming the constitutional/historical/biblical/natural name of Macedonia. Many here seem to believe that should it come to a referendum, residents of RoM should not be trusted with the preservation of our name.

There are examples that I can site from before this issue, but I find it would only detract from our current conversation.

Referenda could be manipulated. Especially in Macedonia where the foreign interests have control of media, political clout and superior finances.

Manipulation can occur even in western countries. Have a look at the Republican referendum in Australia as an example. If you can't find what I'm referring to, I can give you a synopsis.

[Buktop]

There was only one question in you previous post that I ignored, so don't make some imagined argumentation.

Lets see your Q:



Where have they said this?

Show us immediatelly those releases!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3816

http://turkeymacedonia.wordpress.com/2009/04/17/fm-milososki-greeces-goal-is-not-only-to-change-the-name-but-also-macedonias-identity/

http://turkeymacedonia.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/unity-for-countrys-strategic-objective-pm-gruevski-says-to-macedonians-living-in-australia/

I have more releases if you want them, but I think you get the point I am trying to make.

You are comparing political elections, wheter Parlamentary or Presidental, with a Referendum.

To point out how big difference can we get is the fact that VMRO in the Parlamentary election gained 100.000 less votes than for the Presidental.

A referendum on the name of the country is far more important to the citizens than a government election, that is the point I am trying to make.

[Buktop]

Refer to other threads.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3816&page=2

here is one

A quick search of referendum on this forum quickly reveals the initial thoughts of many about a referendum on the name.

[Buktop]

Referenda could be manipulated. Especially in Macedonia where the foreign interests have control of media, political clout and superior finances.

Manipulation can occur even in western countries. Have a look at the Republican referendum in Australia as an example. If you can't find what I'm referring to, I can give you a synopsis.

I agree, but as I expressed before, the ongoing initiatives by the MHRMI & AMHRC as well as the poll results of the citizens of Macedonia in relation to preserving the name suggest that the manipulation would be far too great to mask. They may be capable of 10% manipulation, but by the looks of things, even that wouldn't be enough to sway the result without showing enormous irregularity.

[Vangelovski]

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...?t=3816&page=2
here is one

A quick search of referendum on this forum quickly reveals the initial thoughts of many about a referendum on the name.

You made a specific claim - provide the specific references.

[Bratot]

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=3816

http://turkeymacedonia.wordpress.com/2009/04/17/fm-milososki-greeces-goal-is-not-only-to-change-the-name-but-also-macedonias-identity/

http://turkeymacedonia.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/unity-for-countrys-strategic-objective-pm-gruevski-says-to-macedonians-living-in-australia/

I have more releases if you want them, but I think you get the point I am trying to make.

Where have you read that:

How is the government influencing people to be pro-name change when their press releases are constantly saying no name change for EU?

Груевски: Фокусирани сме на изнаоѓање решение за името и деблокада на евроинтеграцијата

http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=72722987&lId=1

Премиерот Никола Груевски денеска изјави дека Владата води разговори за името со јасна цел - да најде решение и оти има политичка волја и желба за тоа.

http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/5007

http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=65060432&lId=1

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5298947,00.html

http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=123774

You failed in supporting your cheap claim, Gruevski and his government clearly said they will and they are willing to change the name in order to enter EU, but they want to secure the identity which is paradox by itself.

It's very disgraceful to spread such pro-governmental propaganda and to push the public opinion to believe in fairy tales. I don't know on what kind of patriotic pillows you sleep at night but it's time for all of you wake up and stop being political agitators.

A referendum on the name of the country is far more important to the citizens than a government election, that is the point I am trying to make.

You base your conclussion on what?

An assumption!

You have no point beside the hazardous character of your reasoning and pure political agitation.

The citizens are deeply brainwashed about becoming part of EU and they are capable of selfdeciet with changing the name in order to enter.

I don't like gambling with things that don't belong only to me and I don't want any idiot to gamble on behalf of me.

If we want to enter EU/NATO we have to change the name.
If our government and other political parties say that it's our "primary national goal" to enter EU/NATO, than it's understandable to change the name in exchange.

If any government was interested in preserving the name they would immediatelly stop the accession process and would declare that until EU/NATO enforce double standards and pressure Macedonia to give up her name we wont be interested in alligning with them.

It's simple.

[Bratot]

The change of the name is only a technical question, with a government like ours.

The referendum is one technical solution how to escape from responsibility.

[AMHRC]

Thanks to Mango, for posting footage from yesterday's MHRMI/AMHRC conference in Skopje, which can be viewed at www.tv-sonce.com

AMHRC.