Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI)

[Buktop]

Bad way of putting it.

Just because our name has not changed to date, does not mean it will never happen. If you play wife fire, eventually you will get burnt. Just thank your lucky stars it has not happened yet.

You are right, I never ruled it out as a possibility, I am just asking, if the current government is so urgently trying to sell us out due to their morally corrupt vassal policies, don't you think that the talks would be over by now? And isn't it odd that while they are urgently trying to sell us out on one hand, they are also telling every citizen that we should not sacrifice our name or identity to join the EU? I mean, it just seems like a really good way to piss people off doesn't it?

[Bratot]

You are right, I never ruled it out as a possibility, I am just asking, if the current government is so urgently trying to sell us out due to their morally corrupt vassal policies, don't you think that the talks would be over by now?

1. If they are not trying to sell us out they would end this negotiations!

2. They haven't done that only because the people are against it and if they do it they will permanently lose the rule.

And isn't it odd that while they are urgently trying to sell us out on one hand, they are also telling every citizen that we should not sacrifice our name or identity to join the EU? I mean, it just seems like a really good way to piss people off doesn't it?

3. They have to transmit such patriotic terminology in order to gain&preserve the voting share.

4. They still continue supporting the "national interest" of becoming EU/NATO members althought their condition has been repeated several times : Change the name!

5. They are looking for a best option how to sell us out, but covering up for their involvement by creating a refferendum where supposedly the citizens "will decide" for their destiny, read - changed name!

[Buktop]

1. If they are not trying to sell us out they would end this negotiations!

2. They haven't done that only because the people are against it and if they do it they will permanently lose the rule.

1. so let us ask the question, what does Macedonia gain by staying in the negotiations, but not changing the name?

2. So then the people will ensure that the name is not changed correct? Isn't that the same thing as a referendum?

3. They have to transmit such patriotic terminology in order to gain&preserve the voting share.

4. They still continue supporting the "national interest" of becoming EU/NATO members althought their condition has been repeated several times : Change the name!

5. They are looking for a best option how to sell us out, but covering up for their involvement by creating a refferendum where supposedly the citizens "will decide" for their destiny, read - changed name!

3. so DPMNE's voters and party share absolutely do not want a name change, a fundamental part of their constituency, so why would they go against their voters and their party?

4. Though I do not personally support EU accession anytime soon, I don't think it is a bad thing to want to improve Macedonia up to EU levels.

5. So then if they were to go to referendum, and as you say, their voters and party members do not wish to change the name, and we have that DPMNE supporters are currently in the majority, wouldn't it then stand to reason that a referendum would ensure no name change?

[Pelister]

Buktop, you not replying to my posts is actually a blessing given the drivel you constantly throw up.

You have said it many times that "there must be something else going on" ... otherwise why would they be negotiating ...etc ?

Why don't you tell us what you 'really' think is going on.

Then I read this:

So then if they were to go to referendum, and as you say, their voters and party members do not wish to change the name, and we have that DPMNE supporters are currently in the majority, wouldn't it then stand to reason that a referendum would ensure no name change?

Why would anyone want to put the question of political existence to a vote ? Don't you see a danger in this ?

[Buktop]

Buktop, you not replying to my posts is actually a blessing given the drivel you constantly throw up.

Hey, I am not the one who goes off on irrelevant tangents when responding to a post. If you could solidify what you are trying to say in relation to specific points in my posts when replying, I might take the time to respond.

You have said it many times that "there must be something else going on" ... otherwise why would they be negotiating ...etc ?

Why don't you tell us what you 'really' think is going on.

I am trying to lead you through some basic questions that lead to inquiry. I asked myself these same questions when I started researching/correlating government press releases and government actions. I am hoping some of you might do the same.

Why would anyone want to put the question of political existence to a vote ? Don't you see a danger in this ?

Well given the recent media campaign by the MHRMI & AMHRC, I have even more confidence that Macedonians would defend their name and put a lid on this discussion for good.

[Pelister]

Evasive and vague as usual to very clear and very direct questions. I can see why people don't waste their time with you.

So I take it you are 'for' a referendum, right? If so, don't you see the danger in this ?

[Buktop]

Evasive and vague as usual to very clear and very direct questions. I can see why people don't waste their time with you.

So I take it you are 'for' a referendum, right? If so, don't you see the danger in this ?

I am neither for nor against. I don't see why you fear a referendum so much, especially with the levels of interest the MHRMI/AMHRC campaign has generated. And I don't understand why you would discount a referendum when you don't even trust any of the government officials.

Let me put it like this, the government is untrustworthy regarding the name, the citizens of Macedonia are untrustworthy regarding the name. So who should be calling the shots in Macedonia?

[Risto the Great]

Let me put it like this, the government is untrustworthy regarding the name, the citizens of Macedonia are untrustworthy regarding the name. So who should be calling the shots in Macedonia?

A well put question.
Sorry to hop in here, but I would say the citizens are the victims at the mercy of the government. I am still trying to cope with the constitutional amendments relating to the framework agreement. How on Earth did they get through? Are Macedonian citizens feeling any better about themselves now than they did in 2001? Would the Macedonian Diaspora have voted for the framework agreement and constitutional amendments?

What gives us any indication that Macedonians in Macedonia are in control of their destiny?

[Bratot]

1. so let us ask the question, what does Macedonia gain by staying in the negotiations, but not changing the name?

It's not what Macedonia is gaining, it's what the ruling party is gaining!?

Staying in the negotiations just postpone the name change in order to be longer in rule and to get rich as much as possible.

2. So then the people will ensure that the name is not changed correct? Isn't that the same thing as a referendum?

If they do that they will break their election promisses.

The elections for a government are not same as a referendum, if we follow your lack of logic than all the rest of the votes collected by the other parties are FOR a name change?

VMRO-DPMNE gained around 400.000 votes, if they are (mistakely) recognized as votes against possibile name change through a referendum than unfortunatelly ... they are not enough.

3. so DPMNE's voters and party share absolutely do not want a name change, a fundamental part of their constituency, so why would they go against their voters and their party?

Because they have made obligations to EU/NATO and they will not confronte their voters or the rest of the citizens directly, but they will try to influe them in supporting a name change and will try to put the whole responsibility on them.

Every Macedonian want to STOP the negotiations, so why they are still negotiating?

4. Though I do not personally support EU accession anytime soon, I don't think it is a bad thing to want to improve Macedonia up to EU levels.

To deport the Roma population?

To deny ethnic minorities?

To deny the selfidentification right?

To bankrupt?

5. So then if they were to go to referendum, and as you say, their voters and party members do not wish to change the name, and we have that DPMNE supporters are currently in the majority, wouldn't it then stand to reason that a referendum would ensure no name change?

I explained to you the flaw in your poor logic.

Not even considerating the fact that the reasons why a person vote for a party can vary extremally, from economic perspective, political or as a result of the disapointment in the previous.. etc.

A referendum is potentional suicide, national one, plus on such referendum every CITIZEN of Macedonia has a right to vote, not only the Macedonians, there is huge posibility of infatuation with already set up results.
Speaking frankly, it is a huge risk and allows many manipulations and selfdeceit.

[Buktop]

A well put question.
Sorry to hop in here, but I would say the citizens are the victims at the mercy of the government. I am still trying to cope with the constitutional amendments relating to the framework agreement. How on Earth did they get through? Are Macedonian citizens feeling any better about themselves now than they did in 2001? Would the Macedonian Diaspora have voted for the framework agreement and constitutional amendments?

What gives us any indication that Macedonians in Macedonia are in control of their destiny?

No need to be sorry, any input is welcomed.

I would agree that the citizens are still suffering from the Yugoslav mindset where they didn't have to take direct control of their own government, but I would also say that many are disillusioned with their government due to the massive disappointments of previous governments since our independence. This seems to be the case with many, if not most, post communist/socialist states.

During the 2004 referendum we saw such a situation where the citizens could have reversed the turn of events which solidified the implementation of the Ohrid agreement. Now we can chalk this up to US bribery, SDS fearmongering, and overall apathetic/impassive reaction of the citizens.

What we have now is a completely different situation altogether. First off, we have a party in power which openly advocates the solidarity of our name and our identity. Secondly, we have a majority of the citizenry voting and supporting said party. Thirdly, we have the MHRMI&AMHRC campaign currently reaffirming our position on solidarity of the name and identity.

I would say that the citizenry of Macedonia could have control of their destiny, if they had more encouragement and less degradation from the diaspora.

[Buktop]

It's not what Macedonia is gaining, it's what the ruling party is gaining!?

Staying in the negotiations just postpone the name change in order to be longer in rule and to get rich as much as possible.

I didn't ask what the party was gaining, I asked you what all of Macedonia gains by being in the negotiations, but not changing the name.

Staying in limbo where we are negotiating the name, and not achieving the promise of EU is sure to get any party thrown out of control as their constituencies become alienated.

If they do that they will break their election promisses.

The elections for a government are not same as a referendum, if we follow your lack of logic than all the rest of the votes collected by the other parties are FOR a name change?

VMRO-DPMNE gained around 400.000 votes, if they are (mistakely) recognized as votes against possibile name change through a referendum than unfortunatelly ... they are not enough.

Well what you said was if DPMNE changes the name, then they will lose control of the country and the people won't listen to them. I am not saying that elections are the same as a referendum, but I am saying that the DPMNE constituency, i.e. whoever votes for DPMNE understands that they are anti-name change.

We also need to understand that those 400,000 votes are taken out of a total of around 60% of the citizenry actually participating in the voting process.

Because they have made obligations to EU/NATO and they will not confronte their voters or the rest of the citizens directly, but they will try to influe them in supporting a name change and will try to put the whole responsibility on them.

How is the government influencing people to be pro-name change when their press releases are constantly saying no name change for EU?

Every Macedonian want to STOP the negotiations, so why they are still negotiating?

That's what I asked you...

To deport the Roma population?

To deny ethnic minorities?

To deny the selfidentification right?

To bankrupt?

To have healthcare, to have livable wage, to have security, to have freedom, to have the right to happiness, to have what anyone else would want to have, and to have respect.

I am not talking about being in the EU, I am talking about being on the level of countries who can provide for and support their citizens.

I explained to you the flaw in your poor logic.

Not even considerating the fact that the reasons why a person vote for a party can vary extremally, from economic perspective, political or as a result of the disapointment in the previous.. etc.

A referendum is potentional suicide, national one, plus on such referendum every CITIZEN of Macedonia has a right to vote, not only the Macedonians, there is huge posibility of infatuation with already set up results.
Speaking frankly, it is a huge risk and allows many manipulations and selfdeceit.

I understand your fear of a referendum, I don't share it.

[Bratot]

Is this "Macedonia" a person to decide what is best for it or it is ruled by a PARTY?

You are seriously damaged.


60% of those who used their VOTE on the elections, while more than 50% of the citizens with right to vote haven't voted at all.

Could you predict how many would use their vote on a referendum?

A good example was the unsuccessful referendum in 2003 against the territorial division.

[Buktop]

Is this "Macedonia" a person to decide what is best for it or it is ruled by a PARTY?

You are seriously damaged.

Look up the terms State and Parliamentary Democracy. This should answer your questions.

[Bratot]

Buktop look up the deffinition of an (political) Agitator to show you which criteria you satisfy.

[Buktop]

Buktop look up the deffinition of an (political) Agitator to show you which criteria you satisfy.

You can call me whatever names you like, it doesn't change the fact that you cannot answer the posed questions.