Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI)

[Buktop]

So stop asking questions Buktop. Be bold, be brave, make some statements!

Questions are also statements, especially when no one seems to be able to answer them...

[Vangelovski]

I am not saying to blindly trust them, but I am asking you to rationalize the mixed signals coming from the government and it's officials. Can you do that?

Why should I have to rationalise the Government's "mixed" signals - that is for them to rationalise.

My initial post posed this question "the government openly acknowledges the inequities of the "negotiations", the abhorence of the "talks" and the illegality of the "extortion" that Greece is exercizing on RoM, but the question is, why continue? Could it be that the government is that ignorant of the issues, or is there something more to read from the actions of the government?" Can you tell me honestly that the government isn't aware of the vital connection between our name and our identity?

If you note in my post before you even asked this ridiculous question, I stated that any fool can see that the negotiations are detrimental to our cause. That includes the Macedonian Government, so YES, I'm more than sure that the government can see the "connection between our name and our identity".

The problem is that they are VASSAL politicians. This means that they are morally corrupt, serving foreign masters at the expense of their own people for the purposes of their own careers and self-interest. Its also obvious that Macedonian politicians get a kick out of rubbing shoulders with the 'big boys' in Europe and the US (a lot like your boy wonder). They like to paint themselves as international statesmen and receive praise from the "important" men in Brussels and Washington rather than take a principled stand and struggle for Macedonian freedom.

Its really summed up in two words – VASSAL FOOLS.


You will have to aquint yourself with those two words and learn their meaning and how they apply to Macedonian affairs if you ever want to free your own mind from this infliction.


You yourself understand that the negotiations are detrimental to the cause, yet you blindly believe that the Macedonian Government has some "grand strategy" and that we should allow these idiots to follow that through. You also believe that the US is Macedonia's best friend.

[Buktop]

Why should I have to rationalise the Government's "mixed" signals - that is for them to rationalise.



If you note in my post before you even asked this ridiculous question, I stated that any fool can see that the negotiations are detrimental to our cause. That includes the Macedonian Government, so YES, I'm more than sure that the government can see the "connection between our name and our identity".

The problem is that they are VASSAL politicians. This means that they are morally corrupt, serving foreign masters at the expense of their own people for the purposes of their own careers and self-interest. Its also obvious that Macedonian politicians get a kick out of rubbing shoulders with the 'big boys' in Europe and the US (a lot like your boy wonder). They like to paint themselves as international statesmen and receive praise from the "important" men in Brussels and Washington rather than take a principled stand and struggle for Macedonian freedom.

Its really summed up in two words – VASSAL FOOLS.


You will have to aquint yourself with those two words and learn their meaning and how they apply to Macedonian affairs if you ever want to free your own mind from this infliction.


You yourself understand that the negotiations are detrimental to the cause, yet you blindly believe that the Macedonian Government has some "grand strategy" and that we should allow these idiots to follow that through. You also believe that the US is Macedonia's best friend.

Though I do not deny the existence and or prevalence of corruption in Macedonia, I must follow up with another 2 questions.

If, as you say, Macedonian politicians like rubbing shoulders with the big boys in Europe, what is stopping them from changing the name right now? What is stopping them from accepting any one of the number of proposals put forth by Greece?

[Vangelovski]

Though I do not deny the existence and or prevalence of corruption in Macedonia, I must follow up with another 2 questions.

If, as you say, Macedonian politicians like rubbing shoulders with the big boys in Europe, what is stopping them from changing the name right now? What is stopping them from accepting any one of the number of proposals put forth by Greece?

Nothing - they've already accepted two. Short vassal memory...

[Pelister]

Originally Posted by Buktop
My initial post posed this question "the government openly acknowledges the inequities of the "negotiations", the abhorence of the "talks" and the illegality of the "extortion" that Greece is exercizing on RoM, but the question is, why continue? Could it be that the government is that ignorant of the issues, or is there something more to read from the actions of the government?" Can you tell me honestly that the government isn't aware of the vital connection between our name and our identity?

Your making alot of assumptions here Buktop.

Furthermore, your not in the 'heads' of our politicians, and your not a fly on the wall. You can 'assume' these things all you want. Thats all they are. I know you want to believe that 'there is something more going on' but the fact is even if there was there is no way you can prove it, and you can produce no evidence for it. All we have to go on is your 'hunch'. Are we now to believe your fantasy hunch over the fact that the negotiations have brought us one step closer to political extinction? I don't think so nut case. In your own twisted way you can attempt to rationalise these talks all you want, which only proves how misguided and self deluded you really are. Whatever imaginery 'benefit's you believe they are doing us you have yet to produce it.

But even that misses the point entirely.

The 'negotiations' are doing us terrible political, social and historical damage.

[Buktop]

Nothing - they've already accepted two. Short vassal memory...

So how is it that we are still in the same position that we've been in, in regards to the name dispute, for the last 15 years? What has changed?

[Buktop]

Your making alot of assumptions here Buktop.

Furthermore, your not in the 'heads' of our politicians, and your not a fly on the wall. You can 'assume' these things all you want. Thats all they are. I know you want to believe that 'there is something more going on' but the fact is even if there was there is no way you can prove it, and you can produce no evidence for it. All we have to go on is your 'hunch'. Are we now to believe your fantasy hunch over the fact that the negotiations have brought us one step closer to political extinction? I don't think so nut case. In your own twisted way you can attempt to rationalise these talks all you want, which only proves how misguided and self deluded you really are. Whatever imaginery 'benefit's you believe they are doing us you have yet to produce it.

But even that misses the point entirely.

The 'negotiations' are doing us terrible political, social and historical damage.

I have provided a great deal of evidence, it is not my concern whether or not you read it.

No, I am not in the minds of the politicians, but I can base my assumptions off of the evidence that I have in front of me. Are you aware of something about the current "mindset" of the government that we are not?

No doubt the negotiations do pose a threat, and are merely the extended tentacles of the infamous interim accord, but I now have to ask you, are you capable of accurately weighing the consequences of each possible action? Have you made yourself aware of other aspects of our existence that are also on the line?

[Vangelovski]

So how is it that we are still in the same position that we've been in, in regards to the name dispute, for the last 15 years? What has changed?

Your not making sense.

[Vangelovski]

Have you made yourself aware of other aspects of our existence that are also on the line?

Same old predictable Buktop...

[Pelister]

So how is it that we are still in the same position that we've been in, in regards to the name dispute, for the last 15 years? What has changed?

You must be blind as bat.

Are the Greeks Macedonians too, Buktop? Do the Greeks have a legitimate claim to the Macedonian title, name and history? Was Macedonia, really Greek?

Because the Macedonian politicians have been marketing and exporting these lies and assumptions to the whole world. We have been a public relations vehicle for the Greek position, and not even realised we are doing it.

The entire world now believes there are 'two Macedonia's' and that the Greeks have a legitimate claim - thanks to these negotiations. This bullshit UMD 'line' that there are 'two sides' to the dispute conveniently takes the history out of the debate - and distorts what is really going on! Its been one giant public relations extravaganza. We have delivered the Greeks claims to Macedona to the entire world, to our own detriment.

I mean the terms themselves are a fkn outrage. Why even presume to accept such terms?

[Buktop]

Your not making sense.

Let me ask this differently.

If nothing is stopping the current government from changing our name/identity at the expense of joining the EU/NATO, why has our name remained unchanged since the signing of the Interim Accord?

[Vangelovski]

Let me ask this differently.

If nothing is stopping the current government from changing our name/identity at the expense of joining the EU/NATO, why has our name remained unchanged since the signing of the Interim Accord?

The two times (maybe its three - I'll need to double-check) successive Macedonian Governments have accepted a name change, the Greeks have realised they can push for more. An example is "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)", which DPMNE (and your boy wonder) accepted in order to join NATO in 2008. This only signalled to Greece that they can push for an even bigger capitulation.

[Buktop]

You must be blind as bat.

Are the Greeks Macedonians too, Buktop? Do the Greeks have a legitimate claim to the Macedonian title, name and history? Was Macedonia, really Greek?

Because the Macedonian politicians have been marketing and exporting these lies and assumptions to the whole world. We have been a public relations vehicle for the Greek position, and not even realised we are doing it.

The entire world now believes there are 'two Macedonia's' and that the Greeks have a legitimate claim - thanks to these negotiations. This bullshit UMD 'line' that there are 'two sides' to the dispute conveniently takes the history out of the debate - and distorts what is really going on! Its been one giant public relations extravaganza. We have delivered the Greeks claims to Macedona to the entire world, to our own detriment.

I mean the terms themselves are a fkn outrage. Why even presume to accept such terms?

I don't know how you got this out of my post, but you obviously missed something.

This sort of reply is why I usually don't bother replying to your posts.

[Bill77]

Let me ask this differently.

If nothing is stopping the current government from changing our name/identity at the expense of joining the EU/NATO, why has our name remained unchanged since the signing of the Interim Accord?

Bad way of putting it.

Just because our name has not changed to date, does not mean it will never happen. If you play wife fire, eventually you will get burnt. Just thank your lucky stars it has not happened yet.

[Buktop]

The two times (maybe its three - I'll need to double-check) successive Macedonian Governments have accepted a name change, the Greeks have realised they can push for more. An example is "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)", which DPMNE (and your boy wonder) accepted in order to join NATO in 2008. This only signalled to Greece that they can push for an even bigger capitulation.

And if the government is so keen on capitulating, why haven't they conceded more? Don't you think it would take them less than 2 years to agree to one of the many proposals on the table?