Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[makedonche]

Prolet,
I haven't had much to do with ICO for some time and don't listen to his program so I'm only guessing that he is using fear as a motivator to get people actively involved or to participate in the determination/protection of their identity, in my past experience many of our people suffer apathy until someone comes knocking on their door to take something away from them - then they get up and do something about it. This forum is a good example of what I'm referring to - if you look at the poular threads and reply's to them you'll see more activity when our name/flag/identity is challenged or threatened.

[makedonche]

SOM,
I don't know too much about him, but agree that Ico needs to clarify his position - perhaps we can challenge him on radio and then test him here on the forum regarding his position?

[indigen]

Indigen, Havnt you heard of copy paste?? I agree they are negative comments

They are UNFOUNDED LIES and you should not be reposting them! As you well know (unless you are extremely brain dead, which at this point I don't think you are), NO registered Public Company or Incorporated Association members or directors/executive committee representatives can obtain income/shares/profit from such entities. If you or anybody else has such evidence, the relevant Australian authorities are the place to seek redress. Spreading defamatory allegations, even if you did not write them first, is unethical and also libelous.

Indigen, I cant remember the last time you pushed for a dialogue to be reached, you haven't even bothered to commend the latest solving of the church dispute in WA. Why shouldn't we be looking to end this dispute. You should be offering solutions to end this thing because its killing our community.

All the above is irrelevant to what I raised as the issue - you reposting unfounded lies!

FYI: I think that the time for dialogue has long past, about 10 yrs ago, and I believe ALL the community assets should be controlled and owned (by any legal means necessary) by the membership of the incorporated/registered entities.

[Prolet]

Makedonche, I agree since our name and identity is a very sensitive issue for all of us and i dont believe people should use that as their advantage to scare our people. There have been two occasions now where our government had the chance to change our name and they didnt surly that deserves some credit.

[makedonche]

Prolet,
People will spit on you if they disagree with your opinions or actions, a good example is the church dispute, I witnessed people who had worked and lived together in a community for 30 years, turn on each other because the Bishop branded one or more of them non-believers for not placing the assets of the community into his control. This caused a division within communities across Australia and the greatest difficulty fell on the shoulders of those leaders who chose to stand up for their rights and the rights of their community by questioning the Bishops attempt to seize assets. These leaders were branded as non believers and were accused of running the churches as companies for profit - ostricsed by the Bishop - and abused by the average person who had no idea of the implications of simply handing over assets that belonged to the community, and blindly believed that if they didn't hand over the assets they would be ex-communicated and have no legitimate religious services.

[Prolet]

Indigen, There is only one way to register a Church i know that, i dont view the churches as private entities or companies however im just pasting some of what the readers think of that article, here i will paste a letter that was Posted by Risto Stefov on the Maknews forum hopefully i dont get attacked by the Pro Vladika people.

Open letter to the Macedonian community

I am a working woman, born in multicultural and secular Australia. My parents immigrated to Australia from Aegean Macedonia in the 1950s. I have no relatives left in Macedonia. I speak Macedonian; I participate in some Macedonian cultural events. I have always cherished my Macedonian heritage.

Despite its large numbers, the Macedonian community is not very visible in Australia and there are many services that are badly needed. One of the most pressing is aged care services for Macedonians – for those very people who established the Macedonian community in Australia. Just about every other ethnic group has aged care hostels and/or nursing homes. Bi-lingual childcare and schooling services would help maintain the Macedonian language in Australia. The only Macedonian language course at Macquarie University is under threat due to lack of community funding.

But in the last dozen or so years, some eight million dollars worth of Macedonian community assets, gradually built up over the last 50 years by Macedonians, for Macedonians, and managed by the church sector have been needlessly wasted on legal costs. And over what? So that the MOC Diocese can claim it is more important and pious than any other Macedonian church group established and overseen by Macedonians in Australia. And so that the Bishop and his two closest priests can have their personal names on key community asset titles!

Let me remind the readers that before the MOC Diocese began its current assault on our community churches, the public was well served for its traditional rituals and sacraments. My daughter was christened in Sv.Giorgi, the first Macedonian Orthodox Church outside Macedonia. I strongly resent the suggestion by the present Bishop that the church my extended family group has always attended is no longer “holy”.

The MOC Diocese is not a democratic organisation and wants to be the ultimate authority on all matters to do with the opshtina (and not just ecclesiastical matters). Those people that were unhappy with the faction in charge at Sv Giorgi should realise that they can have no say at all, now or ever, in the church opshtini under the jurisdiction of the Diocese. All power belongs to the Bishop and clergy.

The destruction of community as a result of the MOC Diocesan takeovers has been more catastrophic than anything done by our worst enemies in Australia. Absolutely nothing has been gained by so much community money being wasted.

In fact, much more than money is being lost by the Macedonian community. The MOC Diocese that is attempting to wrest away our community assets is ultra-conservative and wants to be the central force directing the Macedonian community. I for one find this very disturbing. I do not want our community to be directed by such an old-fashioned and backward institution that will seriously disadvantage our coming generations. The church, if it is to have a worthwhile future has to modernise.

The approach to women by the MOC Diocese is towards increased repression that is against the social values in our secular society. There will never be a place for women in the Diocese’s rigid hierarchy. Women’s voices will never be heard in church as they are not permitted to participate as readers in services. Indeed, women are considered inferior to men as the MOC Diocese insists on traditional patriarchal values. One woman has already been excommunicated by the Bishop for taking control of her reproductive functions by having an abortion. The Bishop’s so-called reforms are a backward step for women and a blatant grab for the community assets.

At least the independent Australian Macedonian church communities, managed by local Macedonians have the potential of evolving into being more tolerant and attractive to our progressive and young Australian-Macedonian people, as well as providing important services rather than just preaching fundamentalism.

Macedonians need choice in Australia and the retrograde MOC Diocese should immediately cease its ruthless takeover attempts of our community property and assets.

Yours sincerely

Fay
Melbourne
7 December 2009

[makedonche]

Prolet,
I agree the 2 occasions to not change our name is outstanding and commendable and there needs to be more! Motivation to do something about it comes from 2 main sources - fear and reward. People will repond to these in different ways but they are the strongest motivators - my guess is that Ico is using fear to motivate more people to get involved/active ( given the relative negativity of our people).

[Prolet]

Makedonche, I see your concern and you are right however what you are forgetting here is that there needs to be a hierarchy, who's name should those churches be put under?? People like Ico Najdovski?? I dont agree that the church titles should be under the Bishops name every church should be under the Jurisdiction of MPC there is no doubt about it however with all these threats,company churches, unholy churches, taking the prichest away from the people is a wrong way to go about it and it wont get us anywhere. A dialogue needs to be made right away, because over years the church has been the key factor of uniting our people and right now we remain bitterly divided over this issue.

[Prolet]

Prolet,
I agree the 2 occasions to not change our name is outstanding and commendable and there needs to be more! Motivation to do something about it comes from 2 main sources - fear and reward. People will repond to these in different ways but they are the strongest motivators - my guess is that Ico is using fear to motivate more people to get involved/active ( given the relative negativity of our people).

This is not the way to go about it, fear will only discourage people and it wont get us anywhere because they will believe that whatever they do the Government will change our name anyway so whats the point?? This is where we all fail, If Ico was smarter he would use the name issue to motivate the people and to make sure that our name doesnt get changed and get the community to do something about it so our name doesnt get changed. Its only now that the people in Macedonia are starting to Unite and i believe that Todor Petrov has played a big part in that, we should be doing the same in Australia and give our support to those who are defending our name, either Government or non Government organizations it makes no difference.

[makedonche]

Prolet,
Can you see the division this has caused amongst our people? Here we are on the forum hoping that we don't get attacked by Pro Vladika people! Thats great now we have Pro Vladika Macedonians and non-pro Vladika Macedonians, Egeci, Pirinski, Vardarski and a host of other determinants for us that all they achieve is to further divide us, and here we are contributing to this division. The Prime Minister of ROM got it right when he reminded us that we can live as Macedonians here in Australia instead of divided Egeci, Vardarski etc.

[Prolet]

Makedonche, I agree and instead of dividing even further we should solve this issue and move on with much more important issues such as our name. We have spent over 10 million Dollars in court costs, with that amount of money we would have built more churches,community centers,nursing homes,child care anything is better then paying legal costs..

[makedonche]

Prolet,
I agree wholeheartedly, the court processes arose from the community's having to defend themselves & their assets, which under their constitutions they were obliged to do, whereas those who commenced the legal proceedings had a choice whether to discuss or litigate, and it's obvious what they chose to do and the ramifications of that choice!

[ZAS]

I agree SOM, this is a man who has disgraced the people yet he is looking at ways to get out and in the end has egg all over his face.

Makedonche, For Months Ico was saying to his listeners how they will be called Skopjans,they will be without a name and identity while even though we didnt get an EU date and our President and Prime Minister blasted the EU something that a Party like SDSM would never do. At least this government is putting pressure on the EU not like SDSM when they capitulated and changed our name and flag za sramota!!

Why is Ico Najdovski bringing such fear and hate into our community?? When somebody constantly states on radio that our name will be changed, when somebody constantly criticizes our government then he openly sides with Traitor Ljube you can see that some people will dislike him in our community.

Its really very simple for our community, we support those who are fighting for us, we support those who fight for our name and identity.

This Itso sounds like a couple of Hot Headed Radio guys in the Illawarra in the 90's called Gravtche Tavche who TORE into anyone who opposed
their Extreme Nationalistic NEO NAZI agenda, they were that BAD that the whole Maco community held various street protests till they were removed, they even had the Radio station taken of air several times, these guys make Itso look like a SAINT.

[Bij]

My car has 6 bedrooms in it.

mine has 7.... and a spa.

[ZAS]

They are UNFOUNDED LIES and you should not be reposting them! As you well know (unless you are extremely brain dead, which at this point I don't think you are), NO registered Public Company or Incorporated Association members or directors/executive committee representatives can obtain income/shares/profit from such entities. If you or anybody else has such evidence, the relevant Australian authorities are the place to seek redress. Spreading defamatory allegations, even if you did not write them first, is unethical and also libelous.



All the above is irrelevant to what I raised as the issue - you reposting unfounded lies!

FYI: I think that the time for dialogue has long past, about 10 yrs ago, and I believe ALL the community assets should be controlled and owned (by any legal means necessary) by the membership of the incorporated/registered entities.

Fellow MTO members, you must excuse INDIGEN'S lack of knowledge on how Company, Trust and Corporation Laws work in this country, perhaps RTG can enlighten HIM.