Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[Prolet]

По десеттина години нарушени меѓучовечки односки и цивилно-црковен судски спор на Македонците во Австралија деновиве двете спротиставени страни постигнаа согласност да се прекинат сите натамошни судски активности и тоа во духот на правпославието и доброто на македонската кауза и македонското православно црковно живеење во Перт Западна Австралија, јави дописникот на МИА од Австралија.

Risto, After 10 years of court battles it seems like its coming to an end, both parties even agreed to build a new Orthodox Church in Perth.

I havnt received anymore info on this yet, What will Ico have to say about it?

[BigMak]

Great to hear but hard to believe, There will be a problem somewhere and again it will all fail, The Macedonian community in perth are all full of shit, they are experts in Money laundering and criminal activity.

[Risto the Great]

The Macedonian community in perth are all full of shit, they are experts in Money laundering and criminal activity.

Ouch! Some pretty big statements there BM. I know it is a divided community but am not aware of the corruption you mention above. Care to elaborate?

[BigMak]

There is no doubt the the largest ethnic venue in perth that was once built and under control of the Macedonians in perth was lost due to the internal greed of board members etc.

this will not change, these people should be held accountable but the unfortunate and illiterate state of the Macedonians in Perth will undoubtedly prevail causing another diversion of funds sending the whole project nowhere.

[Big Bad Sven]

From my experience with Perth and its Macedonian people I can understand where BigMak is coming from.

Yeah I remember that place, apparently it closed down because the owners where stealing money. The catholic Vietnamese got the place and for a few years they had the statue of Goce Delcev (or was it another famous Macedonian?) still hanging around lol

There was also a monthly Macedonian event for the young people, but that closed down because of too many fights and also financial issues as well…… the young Macedonians now go to “oziserbs”……..

Most of the Perth Macedonians are pretty arrogant and vain, especially when it comes to back stabbing or talking about other Macedonian people/families. Most Perth Macedonians are cleaners or Taxi drivers, unlike say the “greeks” who have many famous and wealthy people in Perth business and politics.

[Risto the Great]

I remember feeling somewhat alienated many years ago when I first visited a Macedonian centre in Perth. It was the first time I ever really experienced a "Yugo-friendly" environment. Coming from Adelaide which represents a significantly more united community, it was very much a shock to be an Egejec and feel like an outsider who was not part of the Yugo-friendly group.

Clearly these un-natural divisions have contributed to the problem.

There are many Macedonian achievers in Perth.

[Prolet]

At least in Perth we are recognized as Macedonians.

Risto, I thought the biggest Macedonian Patriots where in Perth?? As i recall the most Yugoslavs were in Sydney, they still hold Yugo nights with the Bosnians.

it was very much a shock to be an Egejec and feel like an outsider who was not part of the Yugo-friendly group.

Risto, I thought you come from Bitolsko?

[Macedonian Sun]

Actually yes, growing up in Perth I thought the other the Maco kids were retards but so were the Italians and greeks.

I think its the distance to the rest of Australia and the greater community that makes the ethnics in Perth a little, how should I put it, head stuck in ass?

I've never really bothered getting into the community but I'm sure there are decent Maco folk around just like every other brand out there.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have never been to Perth and I have no reason to doubt the validity of some of the statements on this thread, but there are good and bad in all groups, in all areas, so I don't think painting all of the Macedonians in Perth with the same brush is fair or accurate.

How well are the Macedonians from Egej represented in Perth, does it have significant groups there as it does in the eastern states?

[Big Bad Sven]

I remember feeling somewhat alienated many years ago when I first visited a Macedonian centre in Perth. It was the first time I ever really experienced a "Yugo-friendly" environment. Coming from Adelaide which represents a significantly more united community, it was very much a shock to be an Egejec and feel like an outsider who was not part of the Yugo-friendly group.

Clearly these un-natural divisions have contributed to the problem.

There are many Macedonian achievers in Perth.

Yeah i think you are right in terms of the "yugo-nostalgia" in Perth. In some ways its good as it brings macedonians close to good people like Slovens, Croats and Bosnkiaks but sadly it involves a lot of serbian involvement as well.

Most of the Perth macedonians look up to the serbs as some sort of "role model" and hang out with serbs and "greeks" - even though those people put down macedonia secretly or when drunk.

Cant say too much about the ageans but from my limited experience they seemed welcome and part of the community. There are a lot of ageans in Perth and they have done a lot for australia. WA has the oldest settlement of macedonian people in Australia. Which is why im assuming the macedonian republic and people are only recognized in WA.

Heh, i remember talking to a old man from agean macedonia about all the failed macedonian clubs in Perth and his response was something along the lines of:
" We Ageans create and build, and the Vardaci take it over and destroy it". I will never forgot those words.

[BigMak]

There is definitely a a superiority feeling from Macedonians from Greek occupied Macedonia

http://www.macedoniawa.com.au/index.htm

They are more accomplished etc etc, basically due to the fact they have been in Oz for much longer and now are into the 3rd -4th generation of Macedonainism in Perth, Already the majority of the Offspring of the 3rd and 4th are totally assimilated into Australian culture, with basically no link culturally to Macedonia apart from Baba i Dedo.

The Vardarci as they call them in Perth, The stirling Suns club no link to any website as usual. They are in the second - 3rd generation and we have re-visited selskiot zivot Perth style. Uneducated yobbo's, alot of them listen to Serb music for the uptempo style but dont care much for the serbs 98% would not have a clue what the drama is with the Name dispute. Basically in Perth if you are not from Prillep Struga or Ohrid you are a outcast.

then we have Macedonian Cultural Centre Ilinden etc etc etc The demographics of the Macedonians in Perth seem to be stale at best "No disrespect to Many of our brothers and sisters here in Perth but we are in a league of our own and the majority could not care less etc".

[Risto the Great]

" We Ageans create and build, and the Vardaci take it over and destroy it". I will never forgot those words.

I don't agree with that totally. Most of the Egejci arrived here much earlier, hence their participation at foundation stages. The Yugo attachment to "communist handout mentality" might have made an impact on the Vardarec willingness to dig deep in their pockets as well .... who knows? These are different times.

The work ethic of most of the older Egejci is without doubt of a very high level. I wonder out loud if the communism mentality in Yugo times did effect the RoMs industriousness. Worthy of discussion.

[Prolet]

The Egejci arrived in the 1930s' even earlier while the majority of the Vardarci arrived in the late 60's early 70's there is a difference. To me personally and i originate from Vardarska, i believe that alot of the Udbashi who were sent from Skopje at the time were made to spy on their fellow Macedonians, the Egejci who were forced out from the Greek Civil war came to Australia to follow their dream and that it so be safe speaking their own language (Our language) going to church without looking over their shoulder,having the proper human rights and raising their children as Macedonians while i cant blame everyone however a small group of Macedonians from the Vardar region took advantage of all that and created alot of problems.

Thats how it was in Yugoslavia if you worked for something that was not for the country you were considered to be an enemy and a traitor look at the Croats today the Udba agents hounded them all over the world, even today when you mention udba to a Croat they will feel the shivers down their spine, this is another reason why some of the Egejci are skeptical because during the 70's and 80s and even early 90s alot of people from Vardarska called themselves Yugoslavs and now they claim to be bigger Macedonians then everyone else. I cant blame the people because during the YU days we never learned about Macedonians, they taught us about Serb,Croatian,Slovenian poets,historians etc you'd never hear about Aleksandar the Great,Fillip II even Chento they did their best to force people to forget about him.

The thing about YU is that it had a really strong army and police, about 70% of the budget went there and they were given the highest powers possible, whatever happened you were wrong and the policeman was right and you couldnt not argue about it.

However this is in the past and like it or not we have to let go and give everyone a second chance, there is no Yugoslavia anymore and people cant think like before, our communities need to be united. If there are Pro Serbian Children in Perth then we need to send people out there to tell them who they are and where they come from, you meet all sorts of people i know one Macedonian lady who is from a Macedonian Village and says she is Macedonian however she cant speak Macedonian and can only speak Serbian its extraordinary so i asked her how do you communicate at home and she goes in Serbian even though we are Macedonians i couldnt believe it.

[Prolet]

Risto, This paints a different picture of the dispute.

ПО ДОЛГОГОДИШНИОТ СПОР СО ВЕРНИЦИТЕ ВО АВСТРАЛИЈА
МПЦ ја доби црквата во Перт



Тони Ангеловски

По десетина години нарушени меѓучовечки односи и судски спорови меѓу Македонската православна црква - Охридска архиепископија и нашите иселеници во Австралија, во градот Перт, двете страни деновиве се договориле да ги прекинат сите судски постапки. Според информациите од МПЦ, постигнат е договор да се најде решение во духот на православието и за доброто на Македонците што живеат таму. Нашинците од Перт повторно ја признаваат јурисдикцијата на митрополитот Петар, а е постигнат договор и за почнување на акција за изградба на нова македонска православна црква во овој град. Овој австралиски град е еден од неколкуте во земјата во кои се водеше повеќегодишен судски спор околу јурисдикцијата на црковните општини. Судскиот спор е почнат пред десетина години и се однесува на тоа кој ќе ги добие тапиите на неколку цркви и манастири, кои се надвор од јурисдикцијата на МПЦ.
Но, според нашите иселеници во Австралија, проблемот е решен само со една црковна општина, а остануваат проблемите во другите 12 општини, со кои МПЦ нема ниту контакти, а не, пак, обиди за решавање на проблемите. Митрополитот австралиско-новозеландски Петар, пред еден месец, најави дека во Австралија ќе се формираат две епархии со цел полесно да се надминат недоразбирањата, но засега нема ништо од реализација на таа идеја. Според Ицо Најдоски, еден од најактивните членови на македонската заедница во Австралија, МПЦ-ОА прво треба да го повлече митрополитот Петар доколку постои желба да се дојде до решение затоа што токму овој владика, според него, е извор на сите проблеми. - Не станува збор за никакво решение на проблемите. Само во една општина во Перт е постигнат некаков договор. Инаку, ние 12 општини немаме разговарано ниту со синодот, ниту со Петар. Во Перт се две општини. Една е со нас, а другите долго време се судеа со МПЦ, па, најверојатно, затоа што потрошија многу пари, сега се согласиле на некаков договор - вели Најдоски.
Според него, за дел од македонската заедница во Австралија е неприфатливо имотот на црквите да биде на име на митрополитот Петар, на што инсистира тој, затоа што на тој начин постои ризик од отуѓување на црквите доколку, можеби, како што вели Најдоски, на Петар му текне да тргне по патот на Вранишкоски и се отцепи од МПЦ.
- Каноните и законите во Австралија не се исти како во Македонија. Митрополитот во Македонија не може да се отцепи заедно со имотот, но во Австралија тоа е реално. Ако му дадеме се, односно ако е имотот на негово име, како што веќе направи со општините што ги контролира, тој може да се отцепи како Вранишкоски и ние Македонците да останеме со празни раце - објаснува Најдоски.
Според него, чудно е зошто МПЦ нема исти аршини за верниците во Австралија и за тие во Канада каде што митрополитот Методиј не им бара на верниците да му ги пренесат црквите. За Најдоски, проблемот најлесно ќе се реши ако синодот ја преземе јурисдикцијата за оваа епархија барем на една година, место упорно да се инсистира на Петар.

http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=1&EditionID=1886&ArticleID=128408

[Prolet]

Some interesting comments, alot of people are voicing their anger against Ico.

Оценил: Kole
Kakva mizerija pisuva raskolnikot ico, kade vi se parite od osiguranjeto za vasiot privaten biznis manastir koj izgore lani i kade se ostanatite donacii sto kako prosjaci gi sobiravte od narodot. Ajde vo ime na vistinata pokazete gi vie vasite tapii od vasite raskolnicki crkvi za da vidime koj se gazdite. Gospod e eden i neka sudi i presuduva.

Оценил: risto
Tokmu toj Ico e glavniot problem vo Avstralija. Malkute crkvi koi ne go priznavaat vladikata Petar se nisto drugo tuku biznis crkvi i se registrirani na privatni lica. Dodeka ostanatite crkvi se pod jurisdikcija na MPC -OA i na narodot i ne e tocno deka se na ime na vladikata. Samiot toj Ico si ja ispeaja pesnata koga go kodose makedonskiot narod na lanskiot protest. Gosopda novinari ve molam ignorirajte go predavnikot Ico vo korist na makedonskiot narod.