this is bullshit dom't expect any answers until the new year that's if they respond or it's filed in the bin.
Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia
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"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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This is the response i got:
The Hon Victor Dominello MP
Minister for citzenship & communities,Minister for aboriginal affairs,
Dear Mr George S.
On behalf of the Minister,i thank you for your correspondence regarding the formation of the ministerial consultitative committtee for the macedonian australian community.
The Ministerial consultative comittees (mccs) have been established to provide asvice & fedback to the minister on behalf of the nsw govt on the needs ,interests & concerns of multicultural communities in nsw.I hope you will agree that the unprecedented formation of a MCC for the macedonian Australian community is a positive step.As it is a mark of respect for the community & commitment to strong & structured dialogue between the nsw govt & the community.
Now in it's early stages the MCC for the macedonian australian community is chaired by mark coure MP,the member for oatley & he has aimed in its participants to include people from a cross section of macedonian australian representative bodies,cultural & religious groups & business people.
Participation in all MCC's will evolve as communities necessarily communicate their perspectives & preferences.
In that respect,the minister is pleased to receive further community suggestions on how the MCC for tha macedonian australian community can best evolve & who may wish to participate in it.Mr Coure is happy to speak with you about holding a meeting with interested community members. like yourself.I will be very pleased to participate on the ministers behalf & look forward to meeting you.you may be interesred to know mr coure has written to the association of macedonian communities in australia & also offerd to meet directly with their representatives.
yours sincerely
Peter shmigel
chief of staff."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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This is what the hellenic council of australia thinks of us using macedonia as aword.
Australian Hellenic Council (NSW) Inc
A coordinating body for the Australian Hellenic community
PO Box 433 Earlwood NSW 2206
Position Paper
Support for the Federal Government’s position
regarding diplomatic recognition of the FYROM.
This paper outlines the arguments of the Australian Hellenic community
in support of the Australian Federal Government’s position regarding
recognition of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Since 1994,
this position has been recognition of the FYROM under that name until
Athens and Skopje achieve a mutually acceptable agreement.
Diplomatic Recognition
In 1994, the Federal Government announced official recognition of the
independence of the southernmost republic of Yugoslavia. The Australian
ambassador to Belgrade was given non-resident accreditation to Skopje.
Shortly afterwards, Skopje opened a diplomatic office in Sydney, followed
by the opening of an embassy in Canberra in 2004, and a ConsulateGeneral in Melbourne in 2008. There are also Honorary ConsulatesGeneral in Perth and Sydney.
United Nations’ nomenclature
In 1993, the new state acceded to the United Nations’ Organisation as the
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. The following year, Australia
formally recognised Skopje’s independence from Belgrade. In 1995 the
United Nations’ brokered an interim agreement between Athens and
Skopje. According to the terms of this agreement, the United Nations’
Organisation and its member-states would use the nomenclature Former
Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
This name was, and remains, an INTERIM measure, designed to
soothe tensions and open the way to a permanent agreement.
According to a statement by then-Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Hon.
Senator Gareth Evans, the 1995 interim agreement was “developed under
United Nations auspices and puts to one side for the time being the issue
of the future name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”.
In addition to the Hellenic Republic (Greece), Australia, and Cyprus
almost 100 United Nations’ member states use the name FYROM,
including:
- EU and NATO members Belgium, the Czech Republic, France,
Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Spain, as well as; - Chile, India, Ireland, Israel, South Africa and the Holy See (Vatican), and; international
organisations such as the International Olympic Committee, FIFA and UEFA.
The Australian Hellenic community looks forward to a final resolution being reached by
Athens and Skopje, a resolution that is acceptable to both sides. This has been the position
of the Australian federal government and federal opposition since 1994. The Australian
Hellenic community believes in the maintenance of this principled position.
Former Yugoslav Republic
During the existence of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (1944-1991), the
territory around Skopje was administered as one of the constituent republics of the Yugoslav
Federation. This is why the United Nations’ mediators opted for the compromise name
FYROM to enable the newly independent state to join the world’s international organisation.
The Evidence of History
Historical evidence from antiquity to the present indicates that the Macedonians of antiquity
considered themselves Hellenes. There is an unbroken chain of archaeological and literary
evidence identifying the inhabitants of Macedonia since at least Homeric times with
Hellenic civilisation. The names of ancient Macedonians, as well as ancient Macedonian texts
such as the Pella Curse Tablet and the Derveni Papyrus (both of which date to the late
third century BC) all testify to the fact that the ancient Macedonians spoke a Hellenic dialect
and considered themselves Hellenes.
Above: A coin issued by King Alexander III of Macedon (the Great; 330s BC), bearing the
Hellenic inscription AΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ (of Alexander).
In his Epistles to the Thessalonians (the people of Thessaloniki, Macedonia’s largest city),
St Paul used the Hellenic language. It was Hellenic that the first European Christians used
to worship and to spread the ‘Good Word’ in Roman-ruled Macedonia. The medieval
Christian churches and cathedrals that adorn Macedonia bear dedicatory and religious
inscriptions in Hellenic.
2With the Ottoman Turkish invasion and conquest in the 1300s, came a wave of Muslim
converts and settlers. Even after five centuries of Muslim Turkish rule, the majority of
Macedonians (speaking different languages) identified as Hellenes. The Balkan Wars
(October 1912-February 1913) brought about the expulsion of the Ottoman Empire and
independence to Macedonia. The 1913 Treaty of Bucharest set the boundaries between the
Hellenic, Yugoslav and Bulgarian states. Greece’s province of Macedonia was formed and
today has a population of some 2.6 million people. It remains an integral part of the
Hellenic Republic and of Hellenic civilisation.
Personal and National Identity
The Slavomacedonian community in Australia claims to have an exclusive right to the use of
the names Macedonia and Macedonian. This is an effort to exclude Hellene Macedonians (who
number some 200,000 in Australia) from identifying themselves as Australian Macedonians.
This despite the fact that they have identified themselves as Macedonians and formed
Macedonian organisations in Australia since the 1920s.
The Australian Hellenic community supports the right to self-determination and
self-identification for all Australians. It must always be kept in mind that identity is
multi-dimensional. People who originate from the geographic region of Macedonia have the
right to use the name Macedonian.
The geographic region of Macedonia has always been home to a diverse range of languages
and cultures, with Hellenic the dominant one. The only way to distinguish between the
different Macedonian groups is through the addition of prefixes such as the federal
government introduced in 1994. For those Macedonians who identify with Athens, Hellenic
Macedonians; for those who identify with Skopje, Slavomacedonians.
Racism and Expansionism
A regular feature of Slavomacedonian protests, publications and presence in Australia are
additional claims of an expansionist and anti-Greek nature. For example, illustrations of their
version of maps of “Makedonija” include parts of northern Greece, refuting a number of
international treaties. On 24 May 2008, the Slavomacedonian community in Australia held a
demonstration (in Melbourne) to pressure the Australian federal government to formally
recognise the FYROM by its “constitutional name”.
Particularly prominent at the rally were Hellenic flags with the Christian cross replaced
by a Nazi swastika. The identification of Hellenes with the genocidal Nazi regime is highly
offensive, calculated to be provocative. The offence is heightened when it is remembered
that Australians and Hellenes fought side-by-side against the Nazis and that Greece suffered
the highest loss of life per capita of any country involved in World War Two.
Large banners declaring “Solun Will Be the Capital of Macedonia Again!”
accompanied by numerous depictions of a “Macedonian” state incorporating the
whole of northern Greece are also calculated to be provocative. “Solun” is the Slavic name
for the city of Thessaloniki, Greece’s second largest city.
3Melbourne, Saturday 24 May 2008
The Slavomacedonian community, with the active support of the government in Skopje,
does not seek “human rights to self identity and [a] democratically voted for constitutional
name”. (Media Release of the organising committee of the 24 May 2008 demonstration) The
Slavomacedonian state and its diaspora are seeking the abrogation of international
treaties and the redrawing of borders in southeastern Europe.
The images displayed at public demonstrations, in publications and in Slavomacedonian
community centres around Australia illustrate the aggressive stance of elements of the
Slavomacedonian community towards the Australian Hellenic community and the Hellenic
Republic. Such claims and images only serve to deepen divisions in Australian society,
through the use of racially vilifying material.
Within a culturally diverse Australia, respect for national symbols and multiple identities has
been a crucial part of the relative social cohesion all Australians enjoy. Political protest is
acceptable. Racial vilification is not.
Conclusion
As stated in the introduction, this paper outlines the political, historical and cultural
arguments of the Australian Hellenic community in support of the Australian Federal
Government’s position regarding diplomatic recognition of the Former Yugoslav Republic
of Macedonia. It is the firm belief of the Australian Hellenic community that this policy
should not change until Athens and Skopje have arrived at a final agreement.
Prepared by Dr Panayiotis Diamadis, AHC (NSW) Secretary, June 2009"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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i think whils't we clamber as to who is on the macedonian consultative committee the greeks have allready things in motion to stop us using our name.THey wamt us to go back to the slav prefix of 1994.If people notice that the greek side is using well known prominent greeks to get their way."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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If anyone wants to contact mark
Mr Mark Joseph COURE, MP
Member of the Legislative Assembly
Member for Oatley
Member of the Liberal Party
Contact Details
A Mr Mark Coure, MP
8 Ormonde Parade
HURSTVILLE NSW 2220
P (02) 9580 9349
F (02) 9580 9103
E [email protected]"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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From what i heard no one want's the church as it's got a hell of a legal bill to settle.They reckon that the vladika has got the church but they are waiting on a court order to take it.They can't have priest so they play tapes.If anyone knows moreby all means mine is just hearsay."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEV
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"Sv. Petka" court case
Here is some info about the Sv.Petka court case. Not sure how much of it it's true. Maybe someone can explain.
СРЕДА, 15 ФЕВРУАРИ 2012
Вистината за Св. Петка
Споделете ја веста
Александар ЏЕПОВСКИ
Деновиве, после пресудата од највисокиот суд во државата Нов Јужен Велс во Австралија, за долгогодишниот спор помеѓу инкорпорираната приватна црквена управа на Св.Петка од Rockdale во Сиднеј Австралија и МПЦ се добиваат невидени и чудни коментари од страната осудена да изгуби, наметнувајќи го целиот овој спор непотребно.
Имено на почеток да нема недоразбирање сите епитети околу управата на Св.Петка дека е “народна“ и спонтано сплотена и “демократски“ избрана, паѓаат во вода. Исто така, паѓаат во вода и изјавите дека владиката Петар ги сака “црквените имоти“ за себе.
Врховниот суд на Нов Јужен Велс денеска донесе пресуда во полза на епархијата за Австралија и Нов Зеланд на Македонската православна црква во однос на судскиот спор за црквата „Св Петка“ во Рокдеил, Сиднеј.
Првите се регистрираа како инкорпорирана компанија и асоцијација уште во 1998 година. Отидоа кај Attorney General (највисокото тело) да се пререгистрират, од Македонска Православна Црква во приватна компаниска црква, каде никој ќе нема право да ги контролира што и како прават со бордот на директори. Му подметнаа фалсификат документ на A.G. (Attorney General), дека тие се правата црква МПЦ, а МПЦ била некој “комунистички производ“. Значи од коњ да паднеш на магаре со цел неконтролирано да работиш со финансии. Затоа во тек на судењето, A.G. си ја призна грешката и рече дека после судов, посебно ќе ги судат овие “мудреци“.
Дел од статутот на расколничата парацрква:
“Црковната асоцијација е основана надворешно, работи независно и не ја признава јуриздикцијата на Македонската Православна Црква основана ( прогласена) во 1967 со седиште во архиепископијата во Скопје, Р.Македонија“
МПЦ со владиката Петар, сите овие години е “легално“ попречувана да се регистрира како и сите нормални цркви.
Знаете од кого? Од група нисколактаски кариеристи: Игор Александров Аврамовски, Ицо Најдовски-Перин, Мајкл Радин, починатиот Ристо Алтин... Нивни пиунчиња се Зоран Цосески од Перт познат како “почесен конзул“, неделниците “Australian Macedonian Weekly“ со Љупчо Станковски, како и “најверниот“ им Игор Павловски со TODAY или “Денес“, синот на Божин Павловски, кои со 5.000$ годишно ја убиваат МПЦ, притоа губејќи најмалку 50.000$ ...
Да, зборот беше ова: Игор Александров Аврамовски во сојуз со “PANMAKEDONIKI“, најголем наш душман и со други непријатели во сите прилики го попречува регистрирањето на МПЦ во парламентите на сите држави во Австралија, како и на федерално ниво.
Затоа, било која црква на МПЦ мора да се регистрира како “приватна“ на “приватно лице“....
ПОЧЕТОКОТ НА КРАЈОТ
Во август 1997 година во Аделајде се свика и донесе устав на Македонската Православна Независна Црква за Австралија INC или Macedonian Ortodox Independent Church of Australia Inc, регистрирана на 20 септември 1997 кај COMMISIONER FOR CORPORATE AFFAIRS (Комесаријат за корпоративни работи). На страна 3 од PARTS II (дел II)- OBJECTS (предмет), се вели: ЦРКВЕНАТА АСОЦИЈАЦИЈА Е ОСНОВАНА НАДВОРЕШНО, РАБОТИ НЕЗАВИСНО И НЕ ЈА ПРИЗНАВА ЈУРИСДИКЦИЈАТА НА МАКЕДОНСКАТА ПРАВОСЛАВНА ЦРКВА ОСНОВАНА (ПРОГЛАСЕНА) ВО 1967 СО СЕДИШТЕ ВО СКОПЈЕ, Р. МАКЕДОНИЈА….
Св.Петка беше дадена на суд кога го избрка свештеникот Митко Митрев. Тој имаше наредба од владиката Петар да ја врши чесно службата. Беше спречуван од управата и тој се најде на улица, владиката беше избркан, како и МПЦ.
Управата, т.е. управите си работеа како што сакаа и го признаваа законот на инкорпорацијата, што во ниеден момент во текот на судењето не потклекнуваа, напротив, се гордееја.
Во еден момент, кога Љупцо Двојаковски се врати од Македонија, каде беше избркан поради љубовни авантури, “нејасни“ финансиски отчитувања, најави поход на Св.Петка. Поради пуштени корени во Австралија, нели деца родени, со државјанство, го лаже дедо Петар дека верно ќе му служи и бара втора шанса во животот. Арно ама, ѓаволот не мирува и во таен сојуз со Игор Александров, скрои план да донесе владика, а воедно и “НЕЗАВИСНОСТ“ на МПЦ. Во игра е John McFearson, некој калуѓер од Руската Задгранична Црква, Англосаксонец по потекло, отишол на “специјализација“ 10 години во грчката црква, а подоцна е испратен во руска црква во Австралија.
Овој калуѓер не ја признава ни Македонија како држава, ни МПЦ како црква, во едно негово интервју МПЦ ја нарекува како творба на Тито и дава совет, дека треба да го слушаме Вранишковски,...
КРАЈОТ НА ПОЧЕТОКОТ
Имаше 3 судови, првиот со судијата Хамилтон, втор со судијата Јанг, трет со судијата Бреретон и СИТЕ СЕ ЕДНОГЛАСНИ дека управата или управите ја прекршиле TRUST (доверба), работеле како ќе им текнело, избркале редовен Поп, вработиле распопи, не даваат финансиски извештаи (дури и судовите имаа проблеми и не добија) фалсификати употребени за да се регистрираат, перење пари и многу други глупости.
Судиите се децидни и едногласни: ЗАКОНОТ И УСТАВОТ НА МПЦ СЕ ВРАЌА ВО СВ.ПЕТКА, ЗАЕДНО СО ВЛАДИКАТА И СВЕШТЕНИКОТ МИТКО МИТРЕВ.
Ако сака, тужената страна што дебело изгуби, (како Грција по старата изрека) да се жали, може да го направи тоа, само под услов ако најдат слабост во одлуките на судиите, да платат приватно од СВОЈ ЏЕБ, никако како до сега од “Асоцијацијата или Црквата“, а од тоа е околу 4-5 милиони долари...
Затоа, како што споменав на почеток, гласините дека не го признаваат судот т.е. трите судови за последните 13 години и дека тек сега почнува судот, се наметнува прашањето: има ли крај на глупостите на овие деструктивни единки, кои немаат ништо човечко во себе освен да живеат од црквена “милостина“?
За крај, становите купени од парите на Св.Петка кои меѓувремено беа дадени на Игор Александров Аврамовски, а дури два “продадени“ на Љупчо Двојаковски за 10.000$ (но вистинската продажна вредност е преку 600.000$) како и градинката “Илинден“, продадена за трошоци на адвокатите, ЌЕ ТРЕБА ДА СЕ ВРАТАТ НА СВ.ПЕТКА. Кој продал, кој купил, ќе треба да си разјаснуваат меѓусебно на посебен суд, бидејќи има документи со такви наредби, ама “овие генијалци“ упорно одбиваат да ја разберат вистината.
Еве и сега им е кажано, што мислите, дали ќе разберат или ќе речат дека не знаеле и не им било кажано? БРЗО ЌЕ ДОЗНАЕТЕ!!!
P. S. За неколку недели Либералната партија на Нов Јужен Велс ќе ја признае МПЦ во Парламентот на НЈВ.
Тогаш Игор Александров Аврамовски, Ицо Најдовски и PANMAKEDONIKI ќе можат само да се сликаат, здружени така, ќе пукнат од мака.
Со почит.
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Daj edna luta, are you from NSW?
Judging by the below 2 paragraphs, I would say that this nothing but a pro-Petar ramble. Do you agree with Petar having the churches signed into his own name?
Александар ЏЕПОВСКИ
Деновиве, после пресудата од највисокиот суд во државата Нов Јужен Велс во Австралија, за долгогодишниот спор помеѓу инкорпорираната приватна црквена управа на Св.Петка од Rockdale во Сиднеј Австралија и МПЦ се добиваат невидени и чудни коментари од страната осудена да изгуби, наметнувајќи го целиот овој спор непотребно.
Имено на почеток да нема недоразбирање сите епитети околу управата на Св.Петка дека е “народна“ и спонтано сплотена и “демократски“ избрана, паѓаат во вода. Исто така, паѓаат во вода и изјавите дека владиката Петар ги сака “црквените имоти“ за себе.P. S. За неколку недели Либералната партија на Нов Јужен Велс ќе ја признае МПЦ во Парламентот на НЈВ.
Тогаш Игор Александров Аврамовски, Ицо Најдовски и PANMAKEDONIKI ќе можат само да се сликаат, здружени така, ќе пукнат од мака.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Daj edna luta View PostNot sure how much of it it's true.
Does anyone actually claim all of that hearsay?
Who wrote it?Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostDaj edna luta, are you from NSW?
Judging by the below 2 paragraphs, I would say that this nothing but a pro-Petar ramble. Do you agree with Petar having the churches signed into his own name?
I don't agree with anyone having churches in their name.
I am also agains the sale of church property or assets. I know that MOCA purchased 4 units owned by "Sv. Petka" - Rockdale and was supposed to keep them so "Sv. Petka" could buy them back. However MOCA decided to sell them and make a quick profit.
Soldier of Macedon, do you agree that directors should be able to sell church assets that were purchased from donations by the church communities?
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Originally posted by Daj edna luta View PostI don't agree with anyone having churches in their name.
Soldier of Macedon, do you agree that directors should be able to sell church assets that were purchased from donations by the church communities?In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Daj edna luta View Postdo you agree that directors should be able to sell church assets that were purchased from donations by the church communities?
If the community agrees to it, I see no problem.
If the officeholders are voted back in, it is certainly even more of an affirmation that the broader community was more comfortable than you might be suggesting. I would be more interested with what happened to the sale proceeds in any case described above. I am sure that is easily verified.
Originally posted by Daj edna luta View Postdo you agree that directors should be able to sell church assets that were purchased from donations by the church communities?
Have another shot at it Daj edna luta.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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