Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[George S.]

i can understand the company law side.But how you going to explain to the ordinary joe out there who has contributed all their live & they regard the property as the people's rather than some company.I would venture to say that a lot of people who beleive that petar should not have the peuples property is supposedly represented by the likes of moca for the community churches.I think a few people will be shocked to learn that the peoples property "narod" really isn't.So in effect all community propert rests with the control of MOCA.

[aleksandrov]

If that is the case the australian incorporated churches have nothing to do with the mother church as the church is no lomger a macedonian church but like a group.Also the priests are not recognized as they are defrockedThe mother chruch,they don't recognize weddings or baptisms performed at the community churches..

This is disingenuous Petar propaganda. To the extent that Petar believes it to be true, he needs to explain on what basis he has incorporated a Macedonian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, with a cleric of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchy of Antioch as its public officer.

All of the Macedonian Orthodox churches in Australia that have been established by incorporated community organisations have been consecrated by Macedonian Orthodox bishops. All of their priests have been ordained by Macedonian Orthodox bishops. Petar's purported defrocking of those priests is a baseless and illegitimate abuse of power as part of his attempted usurpation.

The constitution of the Macedonian Orthodox Church in Macedonia itself says that it is comprised of various organs, including Macedonian Orthodox Church Communities that are separate legal persons.

Also, the Macedonian Orthodox Church St. Petka in Rockdale is not legally owned by individual trustees, but by the Macedonian Orthodox Church Community St. Petka Incorporated. Petar has sought, through litigation and other forms of pressure, to take it off that organisation and place it under legal ownership of individual trustees appointed by him.

We already have a considerably elaborate thread about these matters on this forum.

[aleksandrov]

Sorry tom but what i'm trying to say that at this meeting a hell of a number of people are going to be pissed off with moca for telling them they don't own the properties stc.Those people that donate & help in building of the churches regard the churches as theirs.Call it blood sweat & tears.So over the years the commubnity churches were incorporated own the properties with direct control ny moca.I'm saying a hell of alot of people are going to be shocked to know that they don't own the churches.They think it's in safe keeping for the macedonian narod.So if it's not that we have one big division.

MOCA only owns two churches at this time. They were both established by MOCA, as an incorporated organisation (it was originally named Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney Area Ltd, then Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney Ltd, and now Macedonian Orthodox Community of Australia Ltd).

You should look at title searches on the specific Church thread to see which community organisations the other churches are owned by. You will also find reference material to gain a better understanding of the concept of an incorporated community organisation.

[Risto the Great]

Then what is all this argument about Peter taking over possessions that belong to the Macedonian community in Aus?

Perhaps you should frame your question as follows:

Then what is all this argument about Petar taking over possessions that belong to the Macedonian communities of Aus?

First you need to understand how the Macedonian communities own these assets. This has been explained. If you research the matter, you will find there is no better vehicle to own these assets than incorporated associations. Owning them in individual names is cumbersome and inappropriate.

Imagine if Risto of Dolno Dupeni is one of the owners as his name is on the title. He decides his Greek friends are great and changes his allegiance from Macedonia to Greece. He has the title to the property ?????

Imagine if Risto of Dolno Dupeni is one of the owners simply because he is a member of the/a Macedonian community of Australia. He can cease to be a member but how would he no longer be on the title? (This is a silly example)

In fact Bill, there is simply no other way to own the property in a manner that discharges all obligations and provides enough transparency and accountability to all interested Macedonians. This may sound complicated but if you think it through, there is no other way.

MTO Inc. is an incorporated association. I certainly do not feel like I am the owner of the MTO. It is a vehicle to serve an interested group of people. As we develop a membership base, the entire membership will effectively own the MTO and will be bound by the commitments we make to each other as members in accordance with the guiding rules as set out in the constitution.

Personally, (and I am a little bit parochial about it), I would insist any Macedonian community be bound by the Macedonian Cause as defined on the MTO in addition to their own specific requirements.

[United MKD]

That is the same as the anti-Petar (majority) of churches here in Australia. What most people don't understand is that a church either has to be owned privately or it has to be incorporated as a legal entity in its own right. The Macedonian communities across Australia have decided to incorporate their churches as legal (non-profit) entities. The only other option is private ownership and that is not acceptable.

Which churches does Petar in Australia have ownership over?

[julie]

George,

I will give you a simple example on how and why the Macedonian churches came into being within Australia

The Macedonian people in Australia, within their own Macedonian communities, built these churches themselves, both financially, and their own hands.
This is so they could have their Macedonian Orthodox christenings, marriages, burials according to the rites of the Macedonian Orthodox faith.

As within the eastern states, the diaspora is much higher in numbers than Adelaide, and it was not until 25 years ago Adelaide had the foundations laid for a church. It was literally built by the small Adelaide community , Macedonian tradesmen, and donations by each of us , and kind donations by Macedonian individuals throughout Australia.

Prior to that, in 1968 we had a Macedonian priest sent to us with his wife and toddler son, so that we may have Macedonian services etc., etc. Our community hall, which was built the same way with the first Macedonian migrants had a small room at the back of it, and until we had our church built, everything was conducted within that tiny room.

Peter Karevski came along and decided he wants to own the titles of the Macedonian churches IN HIS OWN NAME. Peter Karevski also is working with the Serbian Orthodox church to have the Macedonian Orthodox religion come under THE SERBIAN orthodox auspices. Perhaps a priest can explain to you why the latter is detrimental to Macedonians seeing it was not until 1969 MOC became autocephalous. (avtokefalna). Basically Ohrid will not be the archdioceses but Belgrade , serbia

Hence the division . This so called bishop is seeking control and ownership of the churches, and Risto can explain it to you better than I can, this is dangerous as most of these churches are under the auspices of the Macedonian communities, which belong to all of us. Not only does the church property become his personal asset with the legal proceedings lost by some churches already, which he can then sell, for his own personal wealth, but dependant on how the churches come under the auspices of those community groups, can he then take on the community centres etc, for his own personal gain.
If the 2010 NSW property Bill was successful, that would have set a legal precedent in Australia where Peter Karevski would not only be the bishop, but GOD to us, having the ability to instigate further legal proceedings against each Macedonian community in Australia
I also find it extremely too coincidental, with Australia holding the largest Macedonian diaspora, that the Macedonian government has been very silent (collusion comes to mind here) , so as to create further division amongst the diaspora here

You have said that you are on neither "side", and each to his own, but this is very serious. I dont see that evil black soul as a man of the cloth, he is stealing from his own people and breaking a commandment, how is that christian? priests are supposed to gather their flock, not divide and segregate them

If you go through these threads, you will see posted the Land Titles office searches conducted (unsure what they are called in NSW), which any member of the public can do for a nominal fee, and see who owns the title to the property in question
Risto has posted a couple there where Petar's name is listed. It is there , black on white, a legal document of property ownership
And still Macedonians are blind, listening to Petar's blackmail they will burn in hell etc etc. Faith , well, if a marriage or burial is conducted in Australia, the births , deaths and marriages offices within each state and territory has these records, by law. For each of these events. They must be registered! As for not being recognised, if you are marrying in a church, because that is your belief, and are married by someone that has been defrocked by a THIEF, then my faith would over rule, knowing I was married in the eyes of God

Sorry if I have made this sound simple, but too many people get so confused over this whole issue it becomes cumbersome, its a no brainer

[George S.]

So what is there a solution to all this or both sides destined to be seperate & divided.I don't think suing each other is the answer that is allready proven.Is there anything that can be done that could in some way being the parties together or is it too late a forgone conclusion???

[Soldier of Macedon]

To begin with, people need to wake up to Petar's deceptive activities both in and out of Macedonia.

[Vangelovski]

Which churches does Petar in Australia have ownership over?

Read this thread. Copies of the property titles have been posted here.

[United MKD]

Thanks. I for some reason thought one of the Perth Sv. Nikola churches were under his title, I must be wrong.

[Vangelovski]

Thanks. I for some reason thought one of the Perth Sv. Nikola churches were under his title, I must be wrong.

Something may have happened since the titles were posted on here. I'm not sure of the situation in Perth.

[George S.]

From what i can see is that the synod if they defrock bishop petar.They should send someone new whom you could have a meaningfull dialogue.If it wasn't for this bishop petar there would not be so much litigation.That has been proven over & over again.I remember the lawyers were saying that don't expect us to solve your problems for you we cost money.Go away discuss it among st yourselves & find an amicable solution.I don't think that has happened but if they defrocked petar & put someone new who can move in tandem with the community churches why not.Does anyone know what the synods answer would be to defrocking petar???Maybe they don't want to do it but for the sake of the macedonian community they have to move on to a more positive action role.

[George S.]

If the synod knows what petar is upto why they don't defrock him & put someone else that can have a meaningfull dialogue & maybe come to a solution to their problems.Petar has been nothing but trouble & has divided the community up so he desrves to go.If he goes a fresh approach is needed with a new direction for all to work together not agains't each other.Do you think anything like that is possible Igor or is it too late beyond redmption.??I think a lot of people in the macedonian community would be happy to see it resolved in some way & to move on.

[Vangelovski]

George, please read through this thread. All of this has been covered ad naseum.

[George S.]

just covering some old ground that maybe there is a solution there.What do you think tom are you going to their meeting..No problem i said what i wanted to say even if it's old ground.