Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[aleksandrov]

Bill,

Making a voluntary donation to an organization or paying for services provided by that organization does not give you ownership of the organization. People who do not trust or are hostile to the organisation have the choice not to contribute to it and usually make that choice.

The Q & A session is not going to be restricted to people who have made contributions to MOCA.

People ask us for sensitive information concerning ongoing litigation or confidential settlements that affect parties other than MOCA all the time.

MOCA is not a church, but a community organization that operates and supports Macedonian Orthodox churches, among other activities designed to preserve and promulgate the distinct Macedonian identity, language and culture. In any case, churches are among the more secretive organizations out there, when it comes to internal affairs.

[George S.]

I can understand that sensitive information has to be treated differently but that doesn't mean other things need to be hidden.The public doesn't really know what's going on.Clearly there is a division in the community & a forum should strive to explain whats going on.

[Bill77]

Bill,
Making a voluntary donation to an organization or paying for services provided by that organization does not give you ownership of the organization.

So let me get this right, (i am not trying to be a smart ass, i am confused) So the Macedonian community in Aus do not own its church's?

Then what is all this argument about Peter taking over possessions that belong to the Macedonian community in Aus?

[Vangelovski]

So let me get this right, (i am not trying to be a smart ass, i am confused) So the Macedonian community in Aus do not own its church's?

Then what is all this argument about Peter taking over possessions that belong to the Macedonian community in Aus?

Bill, when you "incorporate" an organisation, the law then treats it as a separate entity in its own right. No one can own it. It is governed by its members, in our case, the Macedonian community who have joined up as members. Petar does not want legally incorporated churches governed by their members - the community. He wants to own these churches in his own name, as he does those for which property titles have been provided under the church thread and as evidence by his Bill before the NSW parliament last year. That way, he alone can use them as his personal property rather than having the churches as a legal entity in their own right governed by the community. Had he wanted the churches to exist as legal entities in their own right, as opposed to his personal property, he could have incorporated them by filling out a simple form and paying a small fee of $150. In his 15 years here, he has not done that, rather, he has spent millions of dollars attempting to take control of incorporated entities governed by their local communities.

[George S.]

If that is the case the australian incorporated churches have nothing to do with the mother church as the church is no lomger a macedonian church but like a group.Also the priests are not recognized as they are defrockedThe mother chruch,they don't recognize weddings or baptisms performed at the community churches..If that's the case then they don't have to give anything to the mother church contribution of money..So basically like a lot of other religions there is a division.It's a split between those in the community churches,they are incorporated as companies & can't be touched by petar.Then you have the status of rockdale as trustees??I don't know whether petar managed to get that church.i think it's waiting for court
confirmation papers.THen you have all that legal fees that they have amassed who is going to pay that??

[Vangelovski]

If that is the case the australian incorporated churches have nothing to do with the mother church as the church is no lomger a macedonian church but like a group.Also the priests are not recognized as they are defrockedThe mother chruch,they don't recognize weddings or baptisms performed at the community churches..If that's the case then they don't have to give anything to the mother church contribution of money..So basically like a lot of other religions there is a division.It's a split between those in the community churches,they are incorporated as companies & can't be touched by petar.Then you have the status of rockdale as trustees??I don't know whether petar managed to get that church.i think it's waiting for court
confirmation papers.THen you have all that legal fees that they have amassed who is going to pay that??

George, you're way off. You should look over the chruch thread here at the link below so that we don't have to redo the entire discussion again:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3756

[Soldier of Macedon]

This has probably been asked before but I don't exactly recall. Are the churches in Canada, America and Europe (outside of Macedonia) owned by their communities or their priests, bishops, etc?

[Niko777]

In Canada the churches are set up as non-profit organizations with the committee or community members as the directors/trustees. I'm not sure what the relationship is with the bishop, but I doubt that the bishop "owns" the church. For example the committee has the power to hire/replace priests.

[Vangelovski]

In Canada the churches are set up as non-profit organizations with the committee or community members as the directors/trustees. I'm not sure what the relationship is with the bishop, but I doubt that the bishop "owns" the church. For example the committee has the power to hire/replace priests.

That is the same as the anti-Petar (majority) of churches here in Australia. What most people don't understand is that a church either has to be owned privately or it has to be incorporated as a legal entity in its own right. The Macedonian communities across Australia have decided to incorporate their churches as legal (non-profit) entities. The only other option is private ownership and that is not acceptable.

[Niko777]

That is the same as the anti-Petar (majority) of churches here in Australia. What most people don't understand is that a church either has to be owned privately or it has to be incorporated as a legal entity in its own right. The Macedonian communities across Australia have decided to incorporate their churches as legal (non-profit) entities. The only other option is private ownership and that is not acceptable.

The Bishop is not allowing the churches to be incorporated? Sorry I am not that familiar with this dispute.

[Niko777]

Also, it is worth noting that in Canada, the financial information/tax returns of all the Macedonian churches are posted on the government websites for everyone to see. Same goes for all registered charities.

[Risto the Great]

The Bishop is not allowing the churches to be incorporated? Sorry I am not that familiar with this dispute.

Please read the thread from the beginning Niko. There should be more than enough information to assist you.

But yes, the Bishop is making all kinds of allegations about the incorporated entities that hold the title to the church and other community property.

It should be noted that you have described the way the churches are owned in Canada. You have not commented on other community property. I will assume it is held in the same fashion.

The Bishop is also trying to seize other community property as well. Let me know precisely when something fishy begins to smell for you.

[julie]

State incorporation records of the association under the name Macedonian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand, with a deacon of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, Chris Gain, as the public official. Chris (Christopher) Gain and Australian Metropolitan of the Greek Patriarchate of Antioch are known associates Bishop Peter Karevska, although Macedonian Orthodox Church in Macedonia was regarded as uncanonical. Peter Bishop has refused to confirm which is its role in the registration of this Archdiocese, without knowledge of the wider Macedonian Orthodox community and without the knowledge of the Synod and the Assembly of the Macedonian Orthodox Church . In 2010., Australian Metropolitan of the Greek Patriarchate of Antioch, d. Paul sent a written support for the bill to the Macedonian Orthodox church properties in Australia Peter proposed to parliament the Australian federal state of New South Port of Entry. The purpose of the law was the Macedonian Orthodox church properties in Australia to become the legal background of statutory COMPANY, consisting of only nine of the bishop and his appointees. The company would keep the declarative these properties on behalf of the Macedonian Orthodox Diocese of Australia and New Zealand as part of the MPC, although there is no such Diocese, under the Constitution of the MOC. Item 13 of the bill expressly establishes the right of the proposed company to put Macedonian Orthodox church properties in the use of other religions. Item 14 and entitles the company to voluntarily declare that they no longer keep the property in the interest of the present Diocese of Peter, but on behalf of any other religion or institution. Parliament of New South Port of Entry, after extensive parliamentary investigation and hearing, refused to pass the bill, for lack of support among the Macedonian Orthodox communities. Among the Macedonian public, defamatory Peter tries to tarnish such communities as 'necrkovni companies' and 'obeschesteni churches', but not daring to serve with such slander before a parliamentary committee, which was more than clear that this is a non-profit registered organization of the Macedonian Orthodox community which have been carriers of the MOC in Australia, with a democratic organizational structure. It is important to recall that on 17th May 2002, in Nis, Bishop Peter made and signed a draft agreement with the Serbian Church by which MPC would give up its national name, and entered under the jurisdiction of the Serbian Patriarch, as the Ohrid Archbishopric. Because of the sharp reaction of the public in the Republic of Macedonia, III refused to ratify the draft treaty, although Peter publicly claimed that only with ratification MPC will become canonical church. After that, Zoran Vraniskovski (then Bishop John), who brought in Peter MPC knowing his public stance that "may be somewhat right our sister churches when they say that our Church is a communist", decided to apply its own agreement with Ariadne otcepnichkata formation of the Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric under Serbian jurisdiction. Peter again, probably knowing that it would suddenly lose their positions in Macedonia, and thus his ability on behalf of the MPC to continue hajkata against the Macedonian community in Australia, apparently opted for a new strategy for entry into the canonical order of ' sister churches' zatkulisno preparing the ground for secession of the Australian Diocese of the Orthodox Church and its placement under foreign jurisdiction. The fraudulent attempts to discredit those who hinder such a strategy as the enemies of the MOC and the Republic of Macedonia, 'profiteers', 'company executives', 'schismatics' .... Unfortunately, many in Macedonia headlong fall pharisaical such trickery, which deliberately spread hatred and division between the Macedonian community in Australia and Macedonians in Macedonia.








http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/parlment/committee.nsf/0/01097fe8db6e933bca257781000c4099/$FILE/Submission%204.pdf

[Niko777]

Please read the thread from the beginning Niko. There should be more than enough information to assist you.

I apologize Risto for not reading this thread, but this always sounded like one of those messy disputes that I did not want to touch with a ten foot poll

[Soldier of Macedon]

In Canada the churches are set up as non-profit organizations with the committee or community members as the directors/trustees. I'm not sure what the relationship is with the bishop, but I doubt that the bishop "owns" the church. For example the committee has the power to hire/replace priests.

Do any of these churches send a fee or donation to the MOC in Macedonia? Just trying to understand if there is any standard financial coordination between the MOC in Macedonia and those in the Diaspora, and if there were, what exact purpose would it serve.