Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[Vangelovski]

This is the evil side of organised religion, whether you like to admit it or not. It does not matter which faith you subscribe to, they all follow the same evil path of leading the blind down the path of division.

I don't believe I had implied ALL religious leader Vangel.... That appears to be your take on what I wrote.

Really? Which ones did you NOT include in your first post above?

Are Petars values anti-Christian?

Sure they are as he is abusing his position in order to gain unsurpassed wealth and authority.

Is he anti-Macedonian?

Again, yes! He again abuses his position by dividing us so he may amass unsurpassed wealth and authority.

To maintain that a religious leader is righteous because he claims to speak on behalf of our lord is like believing in the tooth fairy.

Let's not call him Petar, let's call him Jimmy Swaggart. Greed is what drives these people and they claim to do it all in the name of the lord.

You're a grown man and quite intelligent. I think you can understand what I'm saying here without having the need to recite from the good book.

I agree.

[Vangelovski]

Petar is a deeply devout christian who has devoted his life to the church hid power in this case is derived from the parishiners who believe in the authority of his position as Bishop.

Indigen I don't know if he is or is not a good christian but many people in our community think he is. I was quoting his supporters.

Not sure what this is?

Athiests are not the problem its the deluded faithful christians and their Bishop who are ripping of the churches many who were initially built by Athiests who considered it an important part of Macedonian culture

I would not call them "faithful Christians". A genuine Christian is one that understands what they purport to believe in and would never knowingly support Petar's actions.

The subservient Macedonian mentality is a part of it so is the religious devotion. You may not know of any atheists involved in the establishment of our churches in Australia but I do

The intellectually honest posters discussing this issue on the Objective Moral Values thread have acknowledged the contradiction in this. We both had a good laugh. But I assume you have some point? What is the point?

[Mikail]

I didn't include nor exclude. I'll let you make up your own mind.

[osiris]

Vangelovski I posted what many people in our commuinty
think about petar to point out the purely subjective nature of what's right and wrong in christianity. My opinion on his role has been expressed on this forum many times . You just rush to condemn because you are a TRUE christian intolerant dogmatic self righteous all nasty qualities. your abuse and belittling of people who don't agree with your madness is indicative of a deep insecurity and the only person that it demeans is you.

[George S.]

does anyone know if the church bill of 2010 got passed??

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski I posted what many people in our commuinty
think about petar to point out the purely subjective nature of what's right and wrong in christianity. My opinion on his role has been expressed on this forum many times . You just rush to condemn because you are a TRUE christian intolerant dogmatic self righteous all nasty qualities. your abuse and belittling of people who don't agree with your madness is indicative of a deep insecurity and the only person that it demeans is you.

I wasn't condemning, I was asking for clarification - hence my question/statement "Not sure what this is?". Perhaps it is YOU that is rushing to judgement in your own insecurity?

[makedonche]

Prolet
You have until the end of today to respond to my questions before I open a thread called "PROLET...ENEMY OF THE MACEDONIAN PEOPLE"

[aleksandrov]

does anyone know if the church bill of 2010 got passed??

No, it did not, George. The Parliamentary Inquiry unanimously recommended against it being passed, so it has not been tabled before the Parliament for adoption. We've already confirmed that a couple of times on this thread (you can confirm it yourself, by searching the NSW Parliament's website).

Unfortunately, posts that focus on the specific topic of this thread are becoming buried under personal sparring over much more general issues or side-issues.

I encourage the moderators to clean this thread up a little. Uninformed people are regularly referred to it as an introductory resource about the Petar campaign in Australia. Considering that we are already up to 43 pages, off-topic posts on the most recent pages make it unlikely that new visitors will ever read the more relevant posts.

[Prolet]

When are you going to realise that the Macedonian people in Australia will never go forward or be united or have their spiritual needs fulfilled while Petar is around? How many years have we been discussing this now? How much more evidence do you require to prove to you that Petar is neither capable nor interested in solving the issue? What has Petar - as the supposed voice of reason and advocate of God's word - done to heal the rift amongst our people?

I already answered this nothing has been done about it because there is no dialogue, all our community money is being spent on court cases and thats bad for everyone. Bishop Petar has failed to unite all our people, we can argue about what he has done and what he hasnt done but we're a long way away from living like a proper community especially in the tough times. Nobody wins when there is a radical argument with court cases, at the same time there needs to be a good stratergy put in place as to what would happen should Bishop Petar leave and how all our community centers and churches will be run so nothing like this ever happens again.

Now that there are going to be early elections and the ruling party has said that there will be a pratenik from Australia then surly this can be raised in parliament so more pressure can be put on MPC to look for a dialogue and find a way out of this mess.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Bishop Petar has failed to unite all our people, we can argue about what he has done and what he hasnt done.........

This is nothing to argue against. It is a fact that Petar has done much to cripple the Macedonian Orthodox Christian community in Australia, he is the cause of this mess, and until he is ejected from the equation, it will remain a mess.

Some of you closet Petar supporters need to come to terms with the truth. The man is a thief who poisons the minds of Macedonian Christians so they can turn on each other. Even his henchmen and lackeys do his work for him. There are two churches in Melbourne which I would frequent when required, one is in Petar's control, the other isn't. It has been a while since I engaged in discussions pertaining to this issue with the local priests and parishioners, I will be much more vocal with my thoughts going forward.

[makedonche]

I already answered this nothing has been done about it because there is no dialogue, all our community money is being spent on court cases and thats bad for everyone. Bishop Petar has failed to unite all our people, we can argue about what he has done and what he hasnt done but we're a long way away from living like a proper community especially in the tough times. Nobody wins when there is a radical argument with court cases, at the same time there needs to be a good stratergy put in place as to what would happen should Bishop Petar leave and how all our community centers and churches will be run so nothing like this ever happens again.

Now that there are going to be early elections and the ruling party has said that there will be a pratenik from Australia then surly this can be raised in parliament so more pressure can be put on MPC to look for a dialogue and find a way out of this mess.

Prolet
Thanks for answering!
In terms of dialogue - there were years and years of it with no result, much like the "name dispute" - and similarly imposed upon the communities! In terms of court cases - commenced by Petar and prolonged by him, causing millions of dollars and hundreds if not thousands of hours of wasted valuable community money and time.
The only requirement to avoid this in future is for the Communities to adopt a constitution similar to that of the South Australian Community - which we urged all communities to do so many years ago.
I will post more soon - busy currently.

[Mikail]

In terms of court cases - commenced by Petar and prolonged by him, causing millions of dollars and hundreds if not thousands of hours of wasted valuable community money and time.

Nicely put!

This is the time and money we as a community could have used to strengthen our ties with government, the general community at large and more importantly, heal the wounds among ourselves from near on a century of division and assist the plight of Macedonians in our occupied territories.

Yet Petar & his supporters would rather the Macedonian community crumble.

What a shame!

[aleksandrov]

I cannot consider Petar and his henchmen to be part of the same Macedonian Australian community that I see myself as belonging to. The Macedonian Australian community I belong to is a self-empowering community, dedicated to the individual rights and freedoms and collective independence of the Macedonian people and their shared institutions. Petar and his henchmen ARE NOT. In that sense, they are no more a part of our community than MPO or "Greek Macedonians" are. Furthermore, I have no hope for being in a genuine community with infinitely greedy, selfish, dishonest, spiteful and malicious individuals, no matter what they were born as or what ethnicity or nationality they expediently identify with. I am prepared to respect their freedom to be whatever they choose to be, as long as they can respect the rights and freedom of others, but when they persist in destructively proving that they are incapable of that, the only course of action left to us is to completely and definitively defeat them. And defeat them we will, no matter how long it takes and how many obstacles are placed before us. All the millions of dollars they can gather from suspiciously undisclosed sources, all the formal institutions and titles they have managed to infiltrate or usurp, all the deceptive, malicious and devious campaigns to vilify, damage, intimidate or otherwise pressure us or our families into treason or submission, will not be enough to suppress the simple truths and our unwavering convictions.

[George S.]

Igor what's the status of the church bill has that gone through?.Also what's happening with St Petka in rockdale.Some say that petar has got it???I agree with your analysis on petar that he is the cause of everything bad that has happend to the macedonian church.

[aleksandrov]

George,

I've replied to your questions in previous posts. Please check the past few pages.

In a nutshell, Petar's Bill has been rejected by the NSW Parliament and he has not taken over the Sv. Petka church. His litigation against the Macedonian Orthodox Community Church St. Petka is still pending, as it has been for about 15 years now.