Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[Daniel the Great]

What that young woman has done is that she has rejected Jesus as the son of God and rejected that Jesus is God in human form by turning to Islam. that will turn out to be a big mistake on her behalf.

[Bill77]

What that young woman has done is that she has rejected Jesus as the son of God and rejected that Jesus is God in human form by turning to Islam. that will turn out to be a big mistake on her behalf.

She was/is a sick girl. She needed a doctor (God)

She could not find this healer in the Macedonian orthodox church, Which was possibly the only Christianity she ever knew and exposed to. God was always there, but these so called leaders through their power and greed and politics got in the way. So in desperation, she went looking for God elsewhere. I am sure God with his amasing grace, will understand her motive. But would he show the same grace to the authority of these Macedonian church's?

What will be the Macedonian orthodox excuse (both sides) where their actions have made a mockery of our church, which has turned people away in disgust and no faith left?

Vangelovski,
I totally agree with there is no room for politics. But when it comes to traditions in a church, it can't be all that bad if it brings people closer to God.

[Daniel the Great]

Jesus is the king of kings!

YouTube - That's My King! Do You Know Him?

No one gets to the father except through him!

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski,
I totally agree with there is no room for politics. But when it comes to traditions in a church, it can't be all that bad if it brings people closer to God.

As long as those traditions are Biblical, otherwise they are only distancing themselves from God.

[makedonin]

I wonder if anyone of you have realized that you would have one Macedonian dispute less if you all just rejected any organized religion or your adherence to Jesus!

I know I know, me with my disbelief in the savior you so much adhere!

But maybe he really made one solid prediction, say Jesus have divided you Macedonians and brought you this nice church dispute:

49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
Luke 12:49-53

Enjoy the fruits of Jesus, don't struggle much against it. It is his will.....

[makedonin]

Its about realising that there is a God that created us and has a purpose for us. Once someone has this realisation I don't see why or how the actions of others would cause them to reject God. It would be like rejecting your own father or mother because someone else does not respect theirs.

Well how about they were not predestined by God to believe, be holy and blameless in his sight and be saved?

Paul was fan of this predestination thing, and here is his over simplistic argument about it. He just say that those who are predestined to destruction does not have to complain, cause they are just like potter, which makes them having no will on their own:

11 Yet,before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[a] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[c]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[d] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[e] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9:11-24

In other words, anyone who does not believe was not predestined for salvation, but for destruction, and since we are just like potter that has no will, has no emotion or capacity of comprehending what is just or unjust, we are not permitted to talk back or ask why are we predestined for destruction or wrath, exactly as the pharaoh was chosen for destruction, thus his heart was hardened not to believe to Moses, so that God can show off his power. Those who are doomed for destruction are for showing off the power of God to those whom he chosen for salvation. And those for destruction does not have to question it, they just have to lean back and suffer the his decision. What a wise man Paul was...

It is very nice.

By the way, predestination is not exclusive to Paul, the whole new testament is of the sort, quick example would be:

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
Ephesians 1:4

Or as Jesus said:

6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of[b] your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 17:6-17

Doomed for destruction, before even making any choice.

By the way, those who believe knew it with certainty, which is than knowledge which excludes belief.

If that really is the truth, than it is a worse than current reality, cause in this reality, one can fight and maybe win.

With predestination doctrines like the above, one either has luck and is chosen, or one has no luck and is not chosen and will be destroyed or punished no matter what he does.

So, what was the choice of that girl, if someone does not mind explaining to me the doomed for destruction? It appears, she was born in orthodox family, but Jesus did not call her, even though she most probably was baptized.

PS: I want to disclaim here that I find Islam as well as other religions as human made, so don't count me between the Muslims.

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

You've been shown for the charlatan you are on the Hellenic Religion thread. Anyone who wants to read your uninformed, disingenious and utterly contradictory crap and the responses to it by a number of posters can do so here:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=952&highlight=hellenic+religion

[aleksandrov]

Daniel,

You make a very good point in that the vast majority of Church attendees - not just Macedonians - attend Church for social purposes rather than genuine worship. However, I doubt the sincerity of this girls faith in Jesus in the first place. If she had genuine faith and understood what she believed in, there is no way she would have ever gone to another belief system.

Vangelovski,

I kind of think that this girl was brought up as an example of the neglect by Macedonian Orthodox clerics of their mission to spread the true teachings of Jesus and thereby help people become true Christians, instead of exploiting the cloth in a non-Christian and even anti-Christian manner, like pharisees. I think that's the point that you should focus on, especially given the specific nature of this thread.

[aleksandrov]

I wonder if anyone of you have realized that you would have one Macedonian dispute less if you all just rejected any organized religion or your adherence to Jesus!

I know I know, me with my disbelief in the savior you so much adhere!

But maybe he really made one solid prediction, say Jesus have divided you Macedonians and brought you this nice church dispute:



Enjoy the fruits of Jesus, don't struggle much against it. It is his will.....

Jesus sought justice. You cannot bring justice to an unjust world without discord, without challenging the entrenched value systems and institutions that enable injustice, and without conflict with those who deviously or naively seek to uphold those values and institutions. The pillars and agents of injustice never stop peacefully and voluntarily. And they are everywhere, starting from members of our own families. The fiery war against the institutions and values they uphold does not have to be physical, but it must at least be an intellectual one. That's what Jesus was engaged in while he was on this earth and that is what he was crucified for. It is also why he was betrayed by one of his own apostles.

[makedonin]

Makedonin,

You've been shown for the charlatan you are on the Hellenic Religion thread. Anyone who wants to read your uninformed, disingenious and utterly contradictory crap and the responses to it by a number of posters can do so here.

Vangelovski, what an angry Christian you are. I give you opportunity to preach and you resort to something that is not actual for a non static person in a dynamic world and believe it or not opinions are static opposed to a dynamic reality, if you can comprehend any of that. The above was not even touched in that thread, so it is irrelevant to the above. Did you try to discredit me, cause you felt offended with my comments and got angry on me?
Don't be so, I don't want to anger you, and besides it only shows that you somehow felt hurt. Instead of going to rampage, try to ask your self why did you felt hurt. Because when anything or anyone threatens us humans with the truth of our essential fragmentation, the quickest, easiest, and most common defense available (trying to aggressively discredit me as charlatan, contradicting i.e. attacking my person)—to hide the truth of our weakness(your attempt to reason on the unreasonable) and to give the illusion that we possess some sort of power (the illusion that you are only a logical unit with out illogical emotionalism)—is aggression.

And as you stated your self, you are most of the time aggressive:

многу пати, ми се агресивни.

I don't want to criticize you here, but want to point you out that you may need to reconsider your logical steps you take in defense of the illogical. Admit to your self that you don't like what you see about the predestination which is thoroughly unjust and that religion is a colorful hope and fear which is the key to your anger management in this instance. Other instances and example where you display aggression has other reasons that I won't go in here.

Jesus sought justice. You cannot bring justice to an unjust world without discord, without challenging the entrenched value systems and institutions that enable injustice, and without conflict with those who deviously or naively seek to uphold those values and institutions. The pillars and agents of injustice never stop peacefully and voluntarily. And they are everywhere, starting from members of our own families. The fiery war against the institutions and values they uphold does not have to be physical, but it must at least be an intellectual one. That's what Jesus was engaged in while he was on this earth and that is what he was crucified for. It is also why he was betrayed by one of his own apostles.

Aleksandrov that is a nice take. I respect it. What makes me wonder is whose justice did Jesus sought? The justice of the Macedonians or the justice of the Greeks? Or maybe the one of God, or the one of his chosen people, which would be those who were chosen by no obvious reason before the creation?

So is it the justice the Macedonians seek in this church dispute aligned with the justice of Jesus?
As St. Peter was trying to tell his audience:

Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism"
Acts 10:34

so why are the Macedonians seeking favoritism for their own church? Same goes for all Christians, cause we have all those fragmented Churches along some national lines!
Also if St. Peter was true, than why God favored and predestined certain people for salvation, as St. Paul said, "before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad" the one was loved the other was hated, and some other like that girl appear not predestined for the truth?

What does gives us the certainty that God does not hate the Macedonians since they are going through a hardship all the time. Maybe the Macedonians were predestined to kill so many people during the Alexanders campaign so that the following generations are to suffer?

I can go on like that, and have tons of questions unanswered .

But the main reason why I entered this thread first is the zealot critique of a personal choice of certain girl.

What makes me wonder is, how strong the religious division of the Macedonians is? If someone has some other religious choice or has none, as in my case, is that a problem for all of you traditional Christians to consider me or that girl for the matter close and enough Macedonian? Which identity takes the upper hand?

Second was the striking fact that the whole Church dispute would not exist if there would be no religious adherence of any kind.

Instead of religious adherence, we ought to have Macedonian adherence, which will swept aside all this silly disputes, and will give no playground for morons like the Peter dude to even start the spite.

I hope you understand my concern. Or is it as the Philosopher dude once said:

I identify first and foremost as a Christian. The flesh profits little; my being a Greek, Macedonian, or Italian, etc, means something but not everything.

Being born one race means little because the flesh profits little; it is the second birth that means everything. Our eternity depends on being a Christian first; our status in the next world of being one nation as opposed to another is nothing.

I hope you see what the problem with the above is!

Being real Christian as the Philosopher dude is means that he ain't giving a shit about being Macedonian! That is the main reason why Macedonians in XIX Century did not bother becoming Bulgarians or Greeks when they began adhering to a Patriarchist or Exarchist Churches!

So who are we? Something that someone planed us to be (Christian predestined for the next world) ? Or that we chose to be?(Macedonians above all)

I thought the whole fight goes along the second line, which actually makes the previous almost irrelevant .

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

You seem to view everything as an "angry rampage". You might find that its YOU that gets excited and unnerved whenever Christianity comes up, always there to try and disprove it with some ridiculous argument. Your "understanding" (and I use that word lightly) of predestination is, as usual, way off. I would happily post the writings of far superior minds (to both of ours) but I know that you would never read it and even if you did, you would fail to understand it. The Hellenic Religion thread is a testament to that.

Calling your posts on this matter uninformed, disingenuous and contradictory crap is a simple statement of fact. The Hellenic Religion thread is there for all to see.

[makedonin]

You seem to view everything as an "angry rampage". Calling your posts on this matter uninformed, disengenious and contradictory crap is a simple statement of fact. The Hellenic Religion thread is there for all to see.

The truth is in the eye of the beholder Vangelovski.

If your post ain't that what I said it is, which I consider dodge of yours, than I could easily say that what you say about those posts of mine is exactly what can be applied to your posts as well. There are enough participants of that thread that saw this like that. So are we going to combat your favorite game, the number counting of supporters? How childish, escape in numbers only shows the insecurity in ones own view and opinion.

Still as I said, that thread is old, and many things said there are not nearly actual for me. I ain't stuck in time so that I can't change or improve my hypothesis and views, you know.
That does not goes for you as I see. You are still the same, static and stacked in opinions shown more than flawed.

So, how do you feel about predetermination and the plead "for being so fucking special"? If that is not how it is meant, show me how you reconcile it for your self. Lets look at it, I ask questions you answer. Ah, sorry I forgot, you ain't good in answering, only in questioning.

Do you feel that the Macedonians are so special to God? Is that why they have to endure all those hardship?

Do you really believe this in your signature:

If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

I would argue that XV until XIX Century Macedonians were calling God by his name so much that he felt so appealed to leave them in slavery!
Than he sent all those Greek and Bulgarian Churches, so that for the sake of his name, they became Bulgarians and Greeks!

Wouldn't you agree? Isn't that what the history shows us? I would argue that it is!

And still God did not restore our Land. Is it that I as Macedonian who does not call his name am standing in his way to fulfill that promise? Or is he going to wait for another 1000 years as the Bible says?

So, what I said about aggression, even if it does not apply this time, it is more than obvious that it apply in many other cases.
It was not meant as critique, it was meant to give you a insight so that you maybe see how to manage your obvious aggressive behavior.

Take it as you like. I see no discussion is possible, so I retreat.

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

Debating something with you is like debating with a two year old. You realise that all you can do is pat them on the head and let them go.

You're all over the place, throwing in so many random arguments, which you obviously don't even understand, one doesn't really know where to begin. But ultimately, all you are trying to do is prove that God does not exist.

For anyone that's interested, read on:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=952&highlight=hellenic+religion&p age=13

[makedonin]

Makedonin,

Debating something with you is like debating with a two year old. You realise that all you can do is pat them on the head and let them go.

Well that is my line you know... As osiris once said, debating religion with religious people is a futile task. Seeking for reasoning and logic where none is.

Also name calling included in debate is only a sign of weakness of ones own opinion, and you do it the whole time, which points out your own stated aggression.

I will leave it at that, we agree that we disagree.

You're all over the place, throwing in so many random arguments, which you obviously don't even understand, one doesn't really know where to begin. But ultimately, all you are trying to do is prove that God does not exist.

No argument is random when it is connected with a random book full with such random statements and glaring contradictions.

By the way, I don't seek to disprove God. If he exists, he certainly ain't like humans and won't act like the humans in any given way. Even your Bible says it similar and than contradicts it self (1 Samuel 15:29 contradicts 1 Samuel 15:35 YLT just as small example). I only point out the zealous predestination doctrine that is unjust as it is, and the futility of human kind who seeks to know the personal mid of God, which as one of the most known apologists have admitted it:

If there is a god, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is....
Pascal's Wager

can't be known to any human.
His wager proposal only shows the spiritual dishonesty of the Christian or for that matter any other human made religion.

Want it or not, religion remains a colorful hope or fear, that is a self declaring fact.

Second to that, I point out that religion does not have a place in worldly affairs, in this case the Macedonian affairs, just like you have taken it on your part to point out another problems concerning the Macedonians affairs.

Religion if you honestly look in history have done more damage to the Macedonian cause by making Macedonians declare as Bulgarians and Greek just cause they adhered to particular Church, than any other betrayal.

Take it as you please, we can't and won't have any debate or agreement.

Farewell...

[makedonin]

Makedonin,

Debating something with you is like debating with a two year old. You realise that all you can do is pat them on the head and let them go.

Well that is my line you know... As osiris once said, debating religion with religious people is a futile task. Seeking for reasoning and logic where none is.

Also name calling included in debate is only a sign of weakness of ones own opinion, and you do it the whole time, which points out your own stated aggression. Your approach to posters here can be only explained as vanity of your personal desires and a reliance on your imagined prestige on this forum or your community and you set off to defeat or destroy anyone or anything that stands in the way of your getting what you want. One of the usual things that you desire to set out is your opinion as measurement for logic and reality which is nothing else but self-indulgence. Naturally this ain't the case, so you go head on head with anyone who has another opinion than yours and resort to insults and name callings when facing nonacceptance of your views and ideas cause it makes you feel hurt or unsafe. This behavior of imposed control and name calling of others allows you to feel good about yourself (that is, to feel strong and “in control”) by hurting, or neglecting someone else. That will stay so and won't change, cause you don't want to go off your self appointed throne.

I will leave it at that, we agree that we disagree.

You're all over the place, throwing in so many random arguments, which you obviously don't even understand, one doesn't really know where to begin. But ultimately, all you are trying to do is prove that God does not exist.

No argument is random when it is connected with a random book full with such random statements and glaring contradiction.

By the way, I don't seek to disprove God. I only say that God can't be human, so he ain't going to act as human, and this is exactly what your bible is trying to say, but than contradicts it self. (1 Samuel 15:29,35 example, does God repent or not?)

I only point out the zealous predestination doctrine that is unjust as it is, and the futile attempt of human kind who seeks to know the personal mid of God, which as one of the most known apologists have admitted it:

If there is a god, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is....
Pascal's Wager

can't be possible.
His wager proposal only shows the spiritual dishonesty of the Christian or for that matter any other human made religion. Any human religion is based on believing something, and the root of the word believe as such only means "hold dear, love" related with "to like, desire" which displays the wishful thinking of any human. Predestination is exactly that, wishful thinking of suffering man, confronted with hardship of given reality circumstances.

Like it or not, religion remains a colorful hope or fear, that is a self declaring fact.

Second to that, I point out that religion does not have a place in worldly affairs, in this case the Macedonian affairs.

Religion, if you honestly look at history, has done more damage to the Macedonian cause, by making Macedonians declare as Bulgarians and Greek just cause they adhered to particular Church, than any other betrayal.

Take it as you please, we can't and won't have any debate or agreement.

Farewell...