Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[George S.]

ive read the Bill & it is totally correct that the real analysis is nothing more than a land grab & gives Petar wide powers to do what he likes & can do anything such as sell the property & transfer the money anywhere.

[julie]

Aleksandrov, cheers for that information. I have some issues
1/ It disgusts me that Reverend Nile is supporting and assisting in passing the Act, its a farce, from someone that instigated the DEMISE and death of the Presbyterian church in the SAME manner this is happening with the Macedonian Church in Australia. The Presbyterian church was swallowed by the Uniting Church. Goodbye Charlie.

2/ The Hellenic Association submission to drop the name , Macedonian. Perhaps they should reject the Act altogether

3/ The NSW Government with their pathetic comments on not acknowledging Macedonia, period, but DEMANDING FYROM or SKOPJE
why is AUSTRALIA continuing to NEGATE MACEDONIANS

4/ the original submission was passed over primarily because the Macedonian Communities in Australia were not privy to open meetings in regard to this whole farce.
Petar, to my knowledge, has not openly done this , yet again

If there are any supporters for the demise of the Macedonian church out there, they are the Petar sheep and his soldiers.
Wake up. Whay happened to the Presbyterian church is now commencing with the Macedonian church. Wake up you bunch of moronic imbeciles.

[George S.]

Apart from the Bill having an adverse effect does church cannon law have any influence
on Australian Law.Can the motherchurch from macedonia because of cannon law say this is mine & take it.Or is there some sort of protection that cannon law is not recognised here?
Also .I agree with Julie that the Hellenic Council should BUTT out this is not their dispute.They should not be allowed to muddy the waters.It's not about the name issue.
Who are these MORONS to dictate how a country etc should be called.How about a name for them "Hellenic Morons Council"".

[indigen]

Среда, 18 Август 2010
Цепачи на националното единство

http://www.mn.mk/istorija/2415-Cepaci-na-nacionalnoto-edinstvo

"Makedonska Nacija" - broj 12:
"..."Makedonska Nacija" gi pozdravuva site borci za makedonskoto
nacionalno edinstvo vo Avstralija im pozheluva uspeh vo nivnata
pravedna borba, a za svoite chitateli gi objavuva vo ovoj broj
spomenatite dve pisma na Makedonskata crkovna opshtina vo Melburn.
Na istava tema objavuvame i drugi materijal shto ni beshe ispraten
od nashi sorabotnici od Avstralija. So toa sakame da gi pomogneme
nashite brakja vo Avstralija vo nivnata borba za zachuvuvanje na
makedonskoto nacionalno edinstvo

Brakja Makedonci vo Avstralija!
Ne ostavajte razni agenti i razni neprijatelski snagi da go razbijat
vasheto nacionalno edinstvo, branete ja nezavisnosta na vashite
crkovni opshtini, so toa kje dokazhete deka ste verni sinovi na
Ilindenska Makedonija!...."

"MAKEDONSKA NACIJA"

For fair use only.

------

A relevant message from MN that, IMO, should be heeded and taken into account today in regard to resisting Jole (aka Petar) K.'s dirty deeds campaign against the patriotic Macedonian community of Australia!

[Mikail]

Guy's, don't be too concerned with what the Hellenic council has to say on the matter. They have their own problems with their own Bishop, Stellianos, who was Petar's mentor in creating the Macedonian Church Dispute. This crap has been going on within the Greek community for much longer.

@ Prolet, sorry to push your buttons pal, but you are way too much of a fence sitter on way too many issues. Thanks for clearing that up.

Sorry Alexendrov, I was unaware you are a Barrister.

[Prolet]

Mikail, You and i go back a long way surly by now you've been able to see that i view this church dispute very highly and i dont want to see this destroying our community.

What i want to know is and im not sure if people do know, Bishop Petar in the Sitel Interview said that he wants to register these 4 churches exactly the same way as the other orthodox churches are registered in Australia. Are the Serbian,Greek,Russian churches registered in a similar way?

The fact that Bishop Petar refuses to discuss his intentions without discussing what he is actually doing to his committee members in the churches i cant fully back his initiative. He needs to be upfront and honest with his dealings because our community is deeply involved in his decisions.

[aleksandrov]

Sorry Alexendrov, I was unaware you are a Barrister.

Mikhail,

I am not a barrister or a practicing solicitor. I was admitted as a lawyer by the Supreme Court of NSW in 1998. This entitles me to work as a solicitor for a firm (if I pay for a practicing certificate), but I have not yet commenced practice as a solicitor and have not commenced the program that I have to complete to become a barrister. My current professional commitment is to establish and temporarily perform the role of Chief Executive Officer of the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney. Once we find somebody suitable to continue that task, I hope to complete the program that is a prerequisite for working as a barrister.

[aleksandrov]

Среда, 18 Август 2010
Цепачи на националното единство

http://www.mn.mk/istorija/2415-cepaci-na-nacionalnoto-edinstvo

"makedonska nacija" - broj 12:
"..."makedonska nacija" gi pozdravuva site borci za makedonskoto
nacionalno edinstvo vo avstralija im pozheluva uspeh vo nivnata
pravedna borba, a za svoite chitateli gi objavuva vo ovoj broj
spomenatite dve pisma na makedonskata crkovna opshtina vo melburn.
Na istava tema objavuvame i drugi materijal shto ni beshe ispraten
od nashi sorabotnici od avstralija. So toa sakame da gi pomogneme
nashite brakja vo avstralija vo nivnata borba za zachuvuvanje na
makedonskoto nacionalno edinstvo

brakja makedonci vo avstralija!
ne ostavajte razni agenti i razni neprijatelski snagi da go razbijat
vasheto nacionalno edinstvo, branete ja nezavisnosta na vashite
crkovni opshtini, so toa kje dokazhete deka ste verni sinovi na
ilindenska makedonija!...."

"makedonska nacija"

for fair use only.

---!

Суштината на расколништвото на МПЦ во Австралија. Многу малку е сменето, освен што поранешните југословенски вазали станаа или беа наследени од вазали на Српската православна црква и други странски хегемони со "вмровска" кожа.

[Mikail]

Mikhail,

I am not a barrister or a practicing solicitor. I was admitted as a lawyer by the Supreme Court of NSW in 1998. This entitles me to work as a solicitor for a firm (if I pay for a practicing certificate), but I have not yet commenced practice as a solicitor and have not commenced the program that I have to complete to become a barrister. My current professional commitment is to establish and temporarily perform the role of Chief Executive Officer of the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney. Once we find somebody suitable to continue that task, I hope to complete the program that is a prerequisite for working as a barrister.

OK. A Barrister here in Melbourne told me not so long go that the term Lawyer was an Amercanism and we don't officially have lawyers in Australia, hence why I assumed you were a Barrister.

[Mikail]

Mikail, You and i go back a long way surly by now you've been able to see that i view this church dispute very highly and i dont want to see this destroying our community.

What i want to know is and im not sure if people do know, Bishop Petar in the Sitel Interview said that he wants to register these 4 churches exactly the same way as the other orthodox churches are registered in Australia. Are the Serbian,Greek,Russian churches registered in a similar way?

The fact that Bishop Petar refuses to discuss his intentions without discussing what he is actually doing to his committee members in the churches i cant fully back his initiative. He needs to be upfront and honest with his dealings because our community is deeply involved in his decisions.

Prolet, we do go a long way back hence my confusion by your actions here.

Prolet our community hasn't been destroyed by Petar, not at all, it's much worse than that. Petar has ripped the very heart out of what took a long time to establish.

As you would well be aware, Petar would have been a young boy, learning how to salute to Tato Tito and how to be a good Yugoslav, when Macedonians fought to establish the very first Macedonian Orthodox Church in the Diaspora and every consecutive Macedonian Orthodox Church thereafter.

Petar has been nothing short of an opportunist spilling out of the breakup of a Communist regime. Petar is as corrupt as every other sellout who has come from the top of the Former Yugslav fallout.

The only way to fix this is by the removal of Petar. Petar can never bring about harmony within our within community.

[Risto the Great]

There is nothing in the Bill about registering the Macedonian Orthodox Church as a legal person. The Bill seeks to create a new statutory corporation made up of Bishop Petar and a handful of his appointees, under the name "Macedonian Orthodox Church Property Trust", to be the legal owner of property which it would hold on trust for the Australian Diocese of the Macedonian Orthodox Church. If the Australian Diocese or the MOC as a whole were to become a legal person in Australia, which they could do by incorporating as an association or company limited by guarantee, they wouldn't need Petar's trustee corporation to hold property for them. In fact, an ASIC database search indicates that the Macedonian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia & New Zealand is already incorporated as an Association. But Petar wouldn't want it to be the holder of properties, as that would require him to be much more accountable to the constituents of the Diocese and to the relevant Australian regulatory agency.

These observations are indisputable. What confounds me is that Petar's supporters cannot see any alternative agendas transpiring right under their noses.

I am trying to understand the mindset of these people and think they must exist in the following fashion:

1. Blindly faithful. They would do or believe anything a man in a robe tells them. &/or
2. Blindly spiteful. They typically did not contribute anything to the building or ongoing maintenance of our churches. They believe they have nothing to lose and perhaps may even gain some influence should a wholesale change in ownership transfer from community to Petar occur. &/or
3. Jilted former community members who seek to destroy the community they used to be associated with. &/or
4. Children of any of the above who are yet to develop independent thought.

All of the above are dangerous for Macedonian communities in Australia.

[aleksandrov]

These observations are indisputable. What confounds me is that Petar's supporters cannot see any alternative agendas transpiring right under their noses.

I am trying to understand the mindset of these people and think they must exist in the following fashion:

1. Blindly faithful. They would do or believe anything a man in a robe tells them. &/or
2. Blindly spiteful. They typically did not contribute anything to the building or ongoing maintenance of our churches. They believe they have nothing to lose and perhaps may even gain some influence should a wholesale change in ownership transfer from community to Petar occur. &/or
3. Jilted former community members who seek to destroy the community they used to be associated with. &/or
4. Children of any of the above who are yet to develop independent thought.

All of the above are dangerous for Macedonian communities in Australia.

At a most fundamental level, the danger is an abominable lack of education, prudence, free thought, moral enlightenment and the courage to stand up for the truth in the face of adversity, among a large part of our community and the Macedonian nation. That is what has kept Petar's engine of moral and material destruction running for so long.

It is easier to find a score of men wise enough to discover the truth than to find one intrepid enough, in the face of opposition, to stand up for it. A.A. Hodge

“Moralnata revolucija – revolucijata vo umot, srceto i dushata na eden ropski narod, e najgolemata zadacha.” Goce Delchev

[George S.]

Igor:Is there any solution to the church dispute?can there be a lasting one???Why & why not?(I'm on the neutral side.)

[aleksandrov]

Igor:Is there any solution to the church dispute?can there be a lasting one???Why & why not?(I'm on the neutral side.)

Yes, there is. The solution is that the Synod appoint a worthy bishop to head the Australian Diocese, in place of Petar, who has been a 'temporary' administrator since about 2004. There will always be disagreements where power-sharing is concerned, but a person who is fit to be a true bishop and respects the Macedonian Orthodox people in Australia would never let things get anywhere near as bad as Petar has.

I refer you to interview with bishop Naum, conducted on 3 January 2008, posted on the official MOC-OA website, in which he was asked: What do you think, when will the situation with the property of the MOC in Australia be solved?

He answered:

"First peace must reign between the faithful in the Australia and New Zealand Diocese of the MOC, and that will occur when one or perhaps even two new bishops are appointed as the authorized prelates, behind whose work will stand a united Holy Synod of the Macedonian Orthodox Church.

For us, in Australia, there occurred a failure of the stages of solving the problems. The problems must first be solved on a spiritual level, and only after that on the material level. The problems must first be solved by prayer, in our heart, and only then outside of us. The church above all is its people, only after come its buildings."

See the full interview, in Macedonian, here:

http://www.mpc.org.mk/MPC/SE/vest.asp?id=2604

[Bratot]

Екслузивно интервју на Митрополитот Преспанско -пелагониски и администратор австралиско-новозеландски Г-дин Петар

Законот се однесува само на оние имоти кои се епархиски и кои моментно гласат на мое име, на Отец Јовица Симоновски, на Отец Тоне Гулев. Ние имаме поднесено изјава, декларација пред адвокати , дека тој имот не е наш туку со одлука на епархиски Управен одбор е купен за овие цели за црквата и кога ќе се донесе овој Закон за старател на црквата, ние го предаваме, значи не станува збор за наш личен имот туку за имот кој е на МПЦ. На оние луѓе кои прават пропаганди ќе им пропаднат пропагандите ако овој Закон се донесе бидејќи не ќе можат да им велат на луѓето дека имаме цркви на наш имот. Со ова нема да стојат имотите на наше име туку името на старателот е МПЦ. И после нас, старател ќе биде МПЦ. Откако ќе се расчистат сите овие работи и кога не секој да се претставува како МПЦ и кога ќе престанат пропагандите, ние ќе обрнеме внимание повќе на отворање на старски домови,детски градинки, и други објекти за згрижување на лица – зависници од дрога, од алкохол и за тие посебно ќе се грижиме.

Нашата цел е да се создаде еднаш засекогаш старател на имотот на македонската црква во Австралија по примерот на првите верници во црквата како што бил случајот со верниците запишани во делата на светите апостоли .Овие регистрации за кои станува збор, овој Закон за старател значи регистрација на МПЦ. Ако МПЦ не биде регистрирана со свој имот не може ни да постои како правно лице.

http://www.radioilinden.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=164:2010-08-15-09-40-46&catid=37:zaednica&Itemid=57

Could you please give your comment on this Aleksandrov?