Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[sf.]

I think that is the wrong attitude and views to have, albeit they are expressed all too often by those on both sides and all it leads to is further irreconcilable division between the Macedonian people and potentially between families.

Rogi, I believe she was referring to non-Macedonian churches in the previous sentence.

[Rogi]

No, having re-read the post, I don't think she was.

[Bill77]

FUCK THAT I am not allowing my sons to marry in any of those churches, they can have a civil service and my grandkinds i will not christen if it means selling myself to the fucking hellas, vulgars or srbs

Jules, i cant work out what you mean by this.

Edit: ok i got it sis. "THE VLADIKA IS SELLING US OUT UNDER THE SERBIAN CHURCH, READ THE EFFING THREADS AND POSTS GEORGE". If you can help me out here and show me where you got this idea from. I will apriecite it. cheers.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Bill, I think Julie was saying that, should the option be only a Greek, Serb or Bulgar church, she would rather her children go un-christened.

[Rogi]

No, I don't think that is what she was saying SoM.

From what I understood of her post, it read as her alleging that the Bishop intends to sell the Churches off to then be under the control of the Serbian Church (based on her reference to the other threads, in which the Nish-accord and others are discussed).

Thus, she said she would disallow her children from marrying in those Macedonian churches which fall under the control of the Bishop, based on that eventual assumption.

In any case, my comment was not particularly related to the churches and the dispute per se, but rather against the notion of dividing our community to that extent where the church we attend, dictates whether we can associate and how we can associate.

[Soldier of Macedon]

No, I don't think that is what she was saying SoM.

From what I understood of her post, it read as her alleging that the Bishop intends to sell the Churches off to then be under the control of the Serbian Church (based on her reference to the other threads, in which the Nish-accord and others are discussed).

Thus, she said she would disallow her children from marrying in those Macedonian churches which fall under the control of the Bishop, based on that eventual assumption.

I tend to agree with Julie, in that if the Macedonian churches under Petar fell within the jurisdiction of the SOC, I would also boycott attending such locations due to the obvious treachery that would have transpired as a result of the srboman "agreement" in Nish.

How about you, Rogi? Do you consider Petar's actions with regard to the "agreement" as treacherous?

[Rogi]

If (this is the operative word here) the Macedonian Orthodox Church ever fell under the jurisdiction of the Serbian Orthodox Church, I would think everyone would either fight for the independence of the Churches here in Australia and if that fails, next would be abandonment of those Churches.

I suppose an example of this scenario is that of the previously Macedonian Church in Melbourne that the Bulgarians took over.

Of course, in the same manner, we can keep drawing various hypothetical and alternate scenarios for many of the issues facing Macedonia.

But you have missed the crux of my comment leading to the discussion on this point; you are talking about matters after-the-fact, which are indeed obvious, whereas the initial post was based on a before-the-fact assumption which can cause unnecessary divisions.

As for your question, I made it clear in my previous post that my comment was not related to the Churches and or the Church dispute per se, but rather, and unfortunately I will quote myself, "against the notion of dividing our community to that extent where the church we attend, dictates whether we can associate and how we can associate."

[Risto the Great]

If (this is the operative word here) the Macedonian Orthodox Church ever fell under the jurisdiction of the Serbian Orthodox Church, I would think everyone would either fight for the independence of the Churches here in Australia and if that fails, next would be abandonment of those Churches.

Rogi, do you think Petar's involvement with the Nish accord has been satisfactorily resolved?

[Rogi]

You will not like my response, but then I suppose nobody will.

Everything surrounding this is based on opinion, including this opinion, in which case what I know, is that what I think, or what is my opinion, is mostly irrelevant.

This is because the Church dispute is not really a matter that holds my interest to the extent that it does others here.

Rather, as a religious person, my interested extends no further than spiritual.

More to the point however, I hold the view that one cannot have an opinion, or should not express an opinion, unless all arguments and facts are known. I cannot claim to know all arguments and facts.

I can say that I do not feel that the Nish-accord affair (or "Nish-gate" as I have heard it referred) has been resolved to my satisfaction, but then I have not heard all the arguments for it to be, if ever it can be.

I can also contradictorily opine that perhaps it has been resolved insofar as having been denounced, to the same extent that Tony Abbott has declared Work Choices to be dead, buried and cremated.


Therefore, If I were required to express an opinion, and I expect that if I do not post one I will be pestered about it in the following posts, then I would opine that every argument I have heard or read, is wrong; but that would be a mere opinion and perhaps (or likely) an ignorant one, and would serve nobody's interest and would be of no use to anybody.


Please let me know if I have not clearly expressed the uselessness of ignorant opinions?

There are others here far more qualified and informed to answer such questions.

[Rogi]

Prolet, I thought I cleared that Book saga up for you by posting the correspondence from the Australian Classification Board?

[aleksandrov]

Rogi,

Legal ownership of property is not opinion, but fact.

To the extent that the issue of whether you are part of the MOC or not is an opinion, I can tell you that the communities that are opposed to Petar are more part of the Macedonian Orthodox Church than Petar's churches are.

As far as you comparing Petar's alleged denouncement of the Nish Accord with Abbott's denouncement of Work Choices, I have three points to make:

1. Can you please refer us to a statement by Petar in which he denounces the Nish Accord in a similar way to Abbott's denouncement of Work Choices?

2. What kind of a person does it take, from the point of view of Macedonian national consciousness, to sign a treacherous decree like the Nish Accord in the first place?

3. Prior to signing the Nish Accord, was Petar ever open with the Macedonian Orthodox people about what he was negotiating with his Serbian masters, the way John Howard's team was open about the type of industrial relations reform they intended to implement?

4. If your answer to Q 3 is 'no', was he or was he not deceiving the Macedonian public when he was purporting to be a Macedonian patriot and unrelenting fighter for the independence of the Macedonian church prior to signing the Nish Accord? How can you trust anything such a blatant deceiver and a closet Srboman says, from a Macedonian point of view?

5. Unlike Abbott, Petar cannot be replaced by a popular vote and any community properties he usurps cannot be taken back. In those circumstances, would you give him the opportunity to sell us out again with something similar to the Nish Accord? Would you sign a document handing over community property to Petar, using your own name?

[Bill77]

Bill, I think Julie was saying that, should the option be only a Greek, Serb or Bulgar church, she would rather her children go un-christened.

Thanks mate.

To be honest, till now i had no interest in this dispute. As Rogi said which also applies to me,

"This is because the Church dispute is not really a matter that holds my interest to the extent that it does others here. Rather, as a religious person, my interested extends no further than spiritual".

But i decided to read this whole thread from post1. Now here i am hours later (i am a slow reader) and all i can say is "HOLY SHIT"

I swear this would be a Hollywood Blockbuster if it was to be made into a movie.

I can now see where the community are coming from. Petar is definetly the cancer of our problems and no one can seriously defend him.

Regarding Julies statement,"THE VLADIKA IS SELLING US OUT UNDER THE SERBIAN CHURCH, READ THE EFFING THREADS AND POSTS GEORGE" i just realised after reading the entirety of this thread that Petar is a SOC sympathiser (which Petar was one of the signatories to the Nish Accord with the Serbian Church and Petar once defied Archbishop g.g. Gavril with support from remnants of the Yugoslav, pro-Serbian political regime in Macedonia). This is what i picked up that might have julie worried and reason for her comments, And rightfully so.

[Bij]

Aleksandrov, if you know the priest well, you can perhaps kill two birds with one stone by asking his wife who she took to the doctor with her to get the referral for the abortion?

This should help him with his current legal battles with his supposed mistress

[aleksandrov]

Aleksandrov, if you know the priest well, you can perhaps kill two birds with one stone by asking his wife who she took to the doctor with her to get the referral for the abortion?

This should help him with his current legal battles with his supposed mistress

Reverend Aleksovski's wife says that the information reached Petar via Mitko Mitrev, being the priest who conducts services for Petar at the Uniting Church property on Fredrick St. in Rockdale. Mitko Mitrev received the information from a former friend of Mrs Aleksovska. The thing that seems unclear is whether the 'friend' gave the information to Mitrev in the course of confession or otherwise in confidence.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to get Macedonians to take appropriate legal action when they have been wronged in Australia. This is particularly a problem with those who are recent arrivals from Macedonia and have a very poor appreciation of the relative integrity of the Australian legal and political system when compared to the Republic of Macedonia.

[julie]

SoM cheers for understanding my statements

When invited to marriages/christenings, I go to whatever church. I attend mass at the NON vladika church.
If push came to shove and MoC came under the auspices of the SoC, I would boycott. I am not a slave in Australia, and I have that right.
I would not run to a Serb/Greek/Bulgar church as some of our sheepy Macedonians have done , do and probably will continue to do so.
I have rights and freedoms in this country. I do not have the need to attend the bricks and mortar buildings of my Macedonian bloodline oppressors to say that I believe in God.
I pray and I worship daily, God will love my irrespective of where I go and I am NOT a sheep.
It really irks me to see how easily people give up and how they think there is nothing wrong with attending mass in our oppressors churches. It happens in Adelaide. In our northern suburbs, we have so called Macedonian patriots that attend mass in Hellassed churches, what a joke. They are spoilt for choice here, they have their vladika one and our church we built proudly.
I am ANTI anyone that promotes division of my beloved people. and the vladika is a piece of work , not Gods work
He has created division within families here and it is disgusting to see
I am not anti the priest, he christened my 3 boys in the Macedonian church and he feels he has to do what he is told. I adore his wife and children, he is a gentle decent man.
However, I would prefer not to attend mass in the vladika church, I would only attend that one if invited for a veselba.
I hope that clarifies
Happy day boys