Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[Rogi]

I don't pretend anything, I agree and disagree with different things, from different sides, on a case by case basis, but my views cannot be pigeonholed as pro/anti in the black and white way you're suggesting.

As for the use of church funds, I'm not trying to be a smart arse, honestly I'm not sure what you mean and I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific about what you mean.

The Bishop and all priests are employed by the Church and the Church funds are gained through the donations of its parishioners, so a logical consequence of that is the situation that you are describing.

The same can be said about any Church, NGO or Association that receives its' funds from donations and has undergone the process of professionalisation / has employees.

[Soldier of Macedon]

OK, I will pretend that I don't remember you participating in and following discussions about this issue at maknews about a year and a half ago, even though I know you were. Aleksandrov and several others have made the statement that Petar has church properties in his own hame (Aleksandrov, please correct me if I am wrong), do you agree or disagree? Or do you not recall that either?

[Daniel the Great]

How would Bishop Petar know what the Macedonian pensioners are doing after church services?
Unless he organized the visit to the casino.

[I of Macedon]

I saw the video and he's not necessarily having a go at the pensioners themselves. He stated that gambling is increasingly becoming a problem for many, as reported to him. The video doesn't show the question posed to him, nor the context of his argument.

If people want to have a go at him, go ahead, but do it for the right reasons. Not based on the initial presentation here.

The Irony in Petar's (and others) comments (by taking a grim but true view of things) is that human beings themselves are a problem - we are like a plague upon this earth, we quickly multiply, destroy, kill (deserved or not) and consume everything. Many times we find that there is a very fine line between what one defines as "good" as apposed to "bad."

Noted also and generally speaking, is that we must pay to basically stay alive, life generally if not mostly, is not free - is that "good" or "bad"? I was just curious

[aleksandrov]

...Aleksandrov and several others have made the statement that Petar has church properties in his own hame (Aleksandrov, please correct me if I am wrong), do you agree or disagree?

Actually, he co-owns four churches that I know of (maybe more) with two of his priests, Tone Gulev and Jovica Simonovski. I can email you copies of the title deeds if you care to post them on this forum, so that we don't have to leave it at the level of statements made by myself and others.

Edit: I originally wrote that he co-owns five churches that I know of, but I should have said four. There are another two churches in his Diocese that are legally owned by private individuals - the church and monastery/church in Port Kembla, but the names of those legal owners are different.

[aleksandrov]

How would Bishop Petar know what the Macedonian pensioners are doing after church services?
Unless he organized the visit to the casino.

He should have specified what churches he was talking about, rather than generalizing and implicating all of them. I have been involved directly or by affiliation with more than half the Macedonian Orthodox churches in Australia since about 1993 and this is the first I have heard of organized trips to a casino, following church service. If it is happening, it is probably happening in some of Petar's churches. That would not surprise me, given that some of his most active NSW foot soldiers in the dishonest campaign to vilify and intimidate his dissenters are people with serious drug, alcohol and gambling problems (instead of helping them overcome their weakness, he exploits those weaknesses to get them to do things that reasonable and respectable people would not do).

[Risto the Great]

Actually, he co-owns five churches that I know of (maybe more) with two of his priests, Tone Gulev and Jovica Simonovski. I can email you copies of the title deeds if you care to post them on this forum, so that we don't have to leave it at the level of statements made by myself and others.

The copies will be placed on a new thread titled "Macedonian Orthodox Church dispute in Australia". Please email them to me Aleksandrov. In this new thread I hope you can provide us with a detailed review of events that led to this sad state of affairs. I would hope you will take the time to re-hash all that has probably been lost on the Maknews forum amongst other places. We are not in the habit of losing or deleting data here.

Can you also please provide copies of titles to your NSW community real property as well as any ASIC data that may be of use to an intelligent reader.

I think it is time for a through analysis for the benefit of our online community.

[aleksandrov]

The copies will be placed on a new thread titled Macedonian "Orthodox Church dispute in Australia". Please email them to me Aleksandrov. In this new thread I hope you can provide us with a detailed review of events that led to this sad state of affairs. I would hope you will take the time to re-hash all that has probably been lost on the Maknews forum amongst other places. We are not in the habit of losing or deleting data here.

Can you also please provide copies of titles to your NSW community real property as well as any ASIC data that may be of use to an intelligent reader.

I think it is time for a through analysis for the benefit of our online community.

Risto,

I will email you the documents, but anything I have to write myself will have to be on a specific question and answer basis for now.

[Prolet]

Actually, he co-owns four churches that I know of (maybe more) with two of his priests, Tone Gulev and Jovica Simonovski. I can email you copies of the title deeds if you care to post them on this forum, so that we don't have to leave it at the level of statements made by myself and others.

Edit: I originally wrote that he co-owns five churches that I know of, but I should have said four. There are another two churches in his Diocese that are legally owned by private individuals - the church and monastery/church in Port Kembla, but the names of those legal owners are different.

Aleksandrov, I know some of the members from the Uprava of the Sveti Kliment Church in Port Kembla and they dont speak too fondly of Bishop Petar, infact they've even kicked him out of a few meetings. They do tolerate him but they would be very happy if MPC replace him this is why you surprised me with your post actually. The manastir they are making is actually pretty good its got three names and i think Sveti Naum is one of them they said its going to cost around $10 million dollars but its going to be in a good location where it can be viewed from a golo oko on a ridche.

Its interesting to note that on the Maknews forum there was a discussion with a guy whos from the Sveti Dimitrija Solunski church and he didnt think too much of the Sveti Kliment church infact he called it a Yugo UDBA church which was a surprise.

http://www.maknews.com/forum/general-discussions/images-of-the-church-sv-dimitrija-solunski-in-wollongong-t19357.html

[Soldier of Macedon]

Aleksandrov, thanks.

Risto, great idea and a necessity, the Macedonian people need to know the full facts.

[Prolet]

Macedonian Churches in Australia to work with the Russian Eparhija?

Risto, SOM i think its time to create a new thread for the current church dispute in Australia, especially after this report.

The situation is going from bad to worse.

Црквите во Австралија ќе соработуваат со Руската црква

Црквите кои не ја прифаќаат канонската јурисдикција на владиката Петар, администраторот австралиски и новозеландски, ќе соработуваат со Руската црква во Австралија

Ова го најавуваат претставниците на македонските православни општини во Австралија, кои наскоро ќе одржат собрание на 12-те цркви, а одлуките ќе бидат доставени до Светиот архиерејски синод на МПЦ-ОА и до Владата на Република Македонија.

- Веќе подолго време се водат разговори за соработка на црквите, кои МПЦ-ОА ги отфрли како „самоотцепени“. На состанокот се очекува да бидат донесени радикални решенија, како и интервенција за промена на владиката Петар. Македонската заедница во Австралија е исцрпена духовно и финансиски, а поделеноста кај народот никогаш не била поголема - објаснува Ицо Најдовски, заменик-претседател на македонските православни општини во Австралија.

Тој додава дека спорот во Австралија настанал во 1996 година, кога за надлежен архиереј беше назначен митрополитот Петар, а веднаш потоа започнале недоразбирањата и судските процеси за одземање на имотите и тапиите. Судските процеси сé уште не се завршени.

Владиката Петар вели дека вакви обиди за приклучување кон Антиохиската или Руската православна црква имало и во минатото, но биле безуспешни, па се сомнева дека и овој пат ќе биде така.

- Во Австралија има четири компании со вкупно пет цркви. Такви какви што се никој нема да ги прифати, а наспроти тоа ќе им биде побаран и имотот. На МПЦ-ОА ништо од ова нема да му наштети. Сметам дека ова е обид да нé заплашат, зашто во август оваа година ни претстои судски спор во Австралија - вели владиката Петар.


Автор: Р.З.

http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=6210107454&id=9&prilog=0&setIzdanie=21997

[Frank]

Bad development

[Prolet]

I dont think Bishop Petar is helping with those comments, he should try to calm the situation instead of making things worse.

This could divide the people even more

[indigen]

I dont think Bishop Petar is helping with those comments, he should try to calm the situation instead of making things worse.

This could divide the people even more

Haha...that is mild stuff compared to his previous form! I don't think we can get more divided than what we are already, IMO.

NB: Don't jump the gun and draw conclusions based on Mk news articles until you have all the info because there is always a lot of disinformation emanating from Petar and his cronies.

[Prolet]

Indigen, How do you see a way out of this mess? This is getting serious now on both sides, there has to be a compromise otherwise its going to kill our community.