Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[makedonche]

Prolet, don't go getting yourself bogged down in pedantics mate. He was Bishop Timothy and Vladika Timotej. This is not up for debate. I know where the MPC originates and understand the plight we as a people have faced for a millennium. This is also not up for debate.

The church and Petar is one large part of the problem. The other part of the problem is the division of our land and the "nie" i "vie" mentality which is born as a result.

One side lived under Greek Dictatorship. The other side lived under similar circumstance, ruled out of Belgrade and covered under the veil of communism.

Baba mi bese tuka od Bitola za poslednite tri meseci. Bese intersno da ja slusam so majkami da zborvaat. Kaj nas taka, a pa kaj nas inaku. Nasite crkvi prajea taka, a nie ne paevme ko vas ect, etc.......

I had to sit the two old ladies down and explain something they had long forgotten.

Nema nie i vie. Ti majko zhivejese pod grkska okupacija i grcite vi nateraja taka da prajte. I vie odevte na grkska crkva i grkskite popoj taka vi nateraja da naprajte.

A pa ti babo zhivejse pod srbska okupacija. I vie bevte naterani da odite pod druk nacin. Vasata crkva bese pod srbska kontrola.

Here is the basis of the problems our people face. "Nie" i "Vie" If we kick this in the butt we will move along with leaps and bounds.

We can't blame the church all on it's own and the problem won't go away if we take Petar out of the equation.

The answer lies within and only we can bring about this change in attitude.

If anyone hasn't seen it yet. Check out the clips here, http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2782 this tells us a lot about how our peoples attitudes were shaped by co-operation between Belgrade and Athens.

Mikail
Thanks for your input, and well put, your contribution to this thread has been outstanding. I tend to disagree somewhat regarding Petar out of the equation, many of us have tried to negotiate/discuss/move forward with him to no avail. Despite pleas and almost begging from elderly Macedonians he remains unrepentant. I therefore put to you that if he were to be removed and replaced with a more youthfull, forward thinking Vladika then we can move forward and unify our people. Changing peoples attitude will come from earning their trust not taking legal proceedings against them and what they have worked to establish all their lives, remember these community groups started with nothing and created much, through hard work and donating their time and money against the backdrop of racism and hardship from other communities who were making it as difficult as possible for them. I'ts a big ask to try and walk in and take it all over don't you think?

Prolet
Please give some thought to my questions and try and respond, I value your input!

[makedonche]

Hello everyone

Im for the Macedonian Orthodox church owing church assets. Im against the way the church went about doing it.
How about the MOC buy the church assets off the community. This way the community can use the money to build cultral centres and whatever else. If the MOC didnt have the money to buy im sure if they went on a collection drive the $$ would have been raised by now Everybody wins

Pak Makedonci sa yadat za nishto.

Gore na nitche
Welcome to the thread and thank you for your comments. Interesting proposal about buying the churches, I'm sure the communities would have been happy to do that rather than court appearances! We would be in much better shape had that have happened!
Makedonci ne se yadat za nishto - se yadime za po dobro!
Ama nema da ima po dobro door da ne go zaprime loshoto!
offline for a while will check in later!

[gore na nitche]

Spolaiti Makedonche.

Nea sami makedontsite si go noseme loshoto.

[Mikail]

Mikail
Thanks for your input, and well put, your contribution to this thread has been outstanding. I tend to disagree somewhat regarding Petar out of the equation, many of us have tried to negotiate/discuss/move forward with him to no avail. Despite pleas and almost begging from elderly Macedonians he remains unrepentant. I therefore put to you that if he were to be removed and replaced with a more youthfull, forward thinking Vladika then we can move forward and unify our people. Changing peoples attitude will come from earning their trust not taking legal proceedings against them and what they have worked to establish all their lives, remember these community groups started with nothing and created much, through hard work and donating their time and money against the backdrop of racism and hardship from other communities who were making it as difficult as possible for them. I'ts a big ask to try and walk in and take it all over don't you think?

Prolet
Please give some thought to my questions and try and respond, I value your input!

Thanks Makedonche, you make a very valid point and I agree with what you say here. Very well put. Petar has been unrepentant in his actions and the Macedonian community in Melbourne is unknowingly suffering the most as a result of his actions. The fight to take over control of the community by Petar in Australia is largely being funded by Macedonians in Melbourne.

The older generation needs to put aside their bitter rivalries and the younger generation needs to be a lot more inquisitive. There are many more of our people out there just like OziMak (sorry mate, this is not a personal attack), who have accepted that sort of simplified explanation without asking any questions.

There are thousands of Macedonians who today do not know the migration of Macedonians started here in the 1920's and the fight to fend of Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian infiltration into emerging Macedonian communities was a hard one.

Time to start an educational thread as to when Macedonians first started arriving here and how hard it was for them to establish the communities.

We were far more united in the 1970's & 80's than we are today. We were a stronger group before there was any Independent Republic.

Why does anyone think Macedonia's Independence from Yugoslavia has seen us go backward as a community?

[makedonche]

Spolaiti Makedonche.

Nea sami makedontsite si go noseme loshoto.

Gore na nitche
Vistina sami makedontsite si go nosime loshoto, loshoto ye krana na zhivot - nema samo dobro tsel vek, mora da ima i dobro i losho po nekoi pat - taka e zhivoto. Do nuns ye rabotata da go namilme loshoto i da go naprajme dobro po golemo!
Po toi natchin mora da bareme ot deka gredi loshoto i kak moshime da go na malime ili da go isteraijme neli?
Excuse my poor Maco - if you don't understand it's because I write in Kotorsko!!! lol

[Stojacanec]

People put a lot of emphasis on the church split when justifying the SA community problems.

I think its more than that. We don't have the grassroots right.

We don't have an established school to teach young kids Macedonian. Our soccer has split from the community and that is not related to the church.

A very key area traditionally was where Macos would congregate at the soccer. Now you can play spot the Maco.

Two key areas that the greeks, serbs and croats have in place is their soccer and school establishments.

A croatian freind told me once that his soccer team "The Raiders" held a soccer carnival one time in Adelaide. Croation teams came from all over the country to participate.

On a friday night the Adelaide Club collected $20,000 at the door. Yes it is big money but more importantly people are walking through the door and the place must be alive.

I also have some friends of the greek kind and I can tell you their church situation is not in harmony what so ever. But they have the grassroots stuff well organised ie. the schools and soccer clubs.

We need to educate people that its OK to go to differnent churches but Adelaide has only room for one main community.

Then we need to strengthen all those areas mentioned above.

[makedonche]

Thanks Makedonche, you make a very valid point and I agree with what you say here. Very well put. Petar has been unrepentant in his actions and the Macedonian community in Melbourne is unknowingly suffering the most as a result of his actions. The fight to take over control of the community by Petar in Australia is largely being funded by Macedonians in Melbourne.

The older generation needs to put aside their bitter rivalries and the younger generation needs to be a lot more inquisitive. There are many more of our people out there just like OziMak (sorry mate, this is not a personal attack), who have accepted that sort of simplified explanation without asking any questions.

There are thousands of Macedonians who today do not know the migration of Macedonians started here in the 1920's and the fight to fend of Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian infiltration into emerging Macedonian communities was a hard one.

Time to start an educational thread as to when Macedonians first started arriving here and how hard it was for them to establish the communities.

We were far more united in the 1970's & 80's than we are today. We were a stronger group before there was any Independent Republic.

Why does anyone think Macedonia's Independence from Yugoslavia has seen us go backward as a community?

Mikail,
"The fight to take over control of the community by Petar in Australia is largely being funded by Macedonians in Melbourne."
This is the cancer I speak about -Macedonians funding legal action against Macedonians - WTF?


"The older generation needs to put aside their bitter rivalries and the younger generation needs to be a lot more inquisitive."
Very good point here, the younger ones need to ask the older ones about all their memories, their stories, any photos/documents they may have hidden away. This will go a long way in creating unity by recording their history and give the younger ones an invaluable lesson - the difficulty I have encountered from my own parents is getting them to talk about the past - my mother is still to this day fearfull of what the Greeks might do! We still need to ask more questions!

"There are thousands of Macedonians who today do not know the migration of Macedonians started here in the 1920's and the fight to fend of Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian infiltration into emerging Macedonian communities was a hard one."
This goes to the heart of the matter as well and is indeed a project worthy of our attention - it is our history in this country which we have the ability/freedom and resouces to document and have it recognised within the Australian history books and taught at schools!

"Time to start an educational thread as to when Macedonians first started arriving here and how hard it was for them to establish the communities"
I think there is already a lot of information in the history section of this forum but a separate thread dealing with this is essential and I would be happy to contribute!

"We were far more united in the 1970's & 80's than we are today. We were a stronger group before there was any Independent Republic."
This is so true, I remember the days of not enough room in the hall at vecherinki, this can happen again, we can re-create those times!

"Why does anyone think Macedonia's Independence from Yugoslavia has seen us go backward as a community?[/QUOTE]"
The division and disunity amongst the communities leads people to seek reasons and assign blame, there are many reasons for our communities having gone backward at a certain stage - the communities peaked at some point and have regressed from there since then, but threads like this and people willing to ask the questions, search for the truth and weed out the cause will bring the communities back together and more unified if it is done on a solid foundation with the right Macedonian Cause & idealogy!

[makedonche]

People put a lot of emphasis on the church split when justifying the SA community problems.

I think its more than that. We don't have the grassroots right.

We don't have an established school to teach young kids Macedonian. Our soccer has split from the community and that is not related to the church.

A very key area traditionally was where Macos would congregate at the soccer. Now you can play spot the Maco.

Two key areas that the greeks, serbs and croats have in place is their soccer and school establishments.

A croatian freind told me once that his soccer team "The Raiders" held a soccer carnival one time in Adelaide. Croation teams came from all over the country to participate.

On a friday night the Adelaide Club collected $20,000 at the door. Yes it is big money but more importantly people are walking through the door and the place must be alive.

I also have some friends of the greek kind and I can tell you their church situation is not in harmony what so ever. But they have the grassroots stuff well organised ie. the schools and soccer clubs.

We need to educate people that its OK to go to differnent churches but Adelaide has only room for one main community.

Then we need to strengthen all those areas mentioned above.

Stojacanec
Well put, only brief response now, will reply detailed tomorrow - stay tuned now it's getting interesting!
Continued - The church split caused Macedonians to fight with Macedonians, family against family, brother against brother, sister against sister, to the point where Macedonians were so disillusioned with what was happening they chose to be baptised, married and buried at alternate denominations - this is not a justification of the communities problems it merely highlights the ease at which people who are not soundly united with a common cause and belief can be easily swayed to change their views about their own people and turn on them. This is why it is a major factor(i'm not saying the only factor) with the communities problems. The church is where I go to pray and get my beliefs in all things good, confirmed and reinforced, it is where "belief" & "faith" is taught and learnt, it's where the lessons of the bible and lessons of life are taught and learnt - when I go there for salvation and the need to enlighten my spirituality and I hear someone standing at the altar telling me the church/hall and assets of the community need to be handed over to someone in return for my salvation and being a true believer and being a good orthodox christian - I question why this is so, assets have nothing to do with being a good orthodx christian and being recognised as such, don't you think?
There has been a school teaching Macedonian at the community for many years and classes were run for most age groups at different times and I believe are still being offered( correct me if I'm wrong).
The soccer split is a sad story and not a good situation, this happened after my time and I don't know why, but I understand that there are compulsory legal requirements and processes that need to be adhered to in order to be part of the soccer association and recieve funding grants and I don't know whether these were adhered to.
We don't need to educate people that it's ok to go to other churches, we need to educate them to go to Macedonian churches! - there are not enough Macedonians in the Adelaide cbd to sustain 2 churches, this is the unity I speak of, we need one church in the cbd and possibly second in the northern suburbs - not 2 churches 3km apart vying for the same parishoners - this is the most destructive and divisive thing currently happening and is the cancer of our community!
As you say we need to strengthen all those points you mention, I agree, the foundation/ideaology and cause must be of solid foundations and this cannot be done from a divided position!

[ZAS]

Thanks Makedonche, you make a very valid point and I agree with what you say here. Very well put. Petar has been unrepentant in his actions and the Macedonian community in Melbourne is unknowingly suffering the most as a result of his actions. The fight to take over control of the community by Petar in Australia is largely being funded by Macedonians in Melbourne.

The older generation needs to put aside their bitter rivalries and the younger generation needs to be a lot more inquisitive. There are many more of our people out there just like OziMak (sorry mate, this is not a personal attack), who have accepted that sort of simplified explanation without asking any questions.

There are thousands of Macedonians who today do not know the migration of Macedonians started here in the 1920's and the fight to fend of Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian infiltration into emerging Macedonian communities was a hard one.

Time to start an educational thread as to when Macedonians first started arriving here and how hard it was for them to establish the communities.

We were far more united in the 1970's & 80's than we are today. We were a stronger group before there was any Independent Republic.

Why does anyone think Macedonia's Independence from Yugoslavia has seen us go backward as a community?

What is it that the Macedonian Community in Victoria is suffering from?
Neseri Gluposti, all the churches under the vladika are excelling and greatly too, this is a fact that is there for all to see, with the other churches i dont care, vie si znajte.
But dont start slandering and assuming that people are ovci and you know what is best for them, Dali si ti that religious that you know more about what way our peoples religious needs be met?
You have no idea nor do I or even others on this Forum.
Fortunetly you live in a free country, and you can choose whatever religion you like, you have choosen yours, and now you want to choose other peoples religion for them.
What are you some sort of Missionery or something?
You talk like the macedonians have no religion and your want to be their guiding force.
My advice to you is dont meddle into something that is beyond your control.

[ZAS]

Risto, this is how Prolet operates at times. He makes assumptions and then his own conclusions via those assumptions.

Sv Ilia in Melbournes west has a Priest who is related to the Vladika. This Priest is one of three beneficiaries of the take over of Macedonian Community properties here in Australia. It is also fact that this Priest is church President, Secretary and Treasurer! So now I ask, the rent he collects from the Chinese community by renting out the community hall, does this get put back into the community in some way? Or does this get funneled into a fighting fund to cause more divisions within our community?

Sv Dimitria in Springvale recently underwent an extension. Sv. Dimitria is also under the Vladikas control. The church was originally blessed by Timothy when he was Vladika. Petar tells the community that unless the church bears a brick with his signature it will be damned.

He is now charging the pensioners, the very people who built the church and community centre, rent to have their weekly meetings there. Many people are now leaving that church also.

Have you any facts or is it just hear say?

[aleksandrov]

...Neseri Gluposti,..

Is this indicative of the manners and moral standards that are taught by Petar's missionaries?

...all the churches under the vladika are excelling and greatly too,

What are they excelling at, exactly?

What do they do apart from collecting money from parishioners, pay undisclosed amounts to their priests and bishop, funding court cases to take over other community churches and build/rent/buy new money-making factories to divert people away from existing Macedonian churches?

What do they do in relation to the preservation and promulgation of the Macedonian identity and culture, and standing up for the human rights and freedoms of the Macedonian people?

Why don't YOU tell us exactly what they are doing with the Sunshine Centre?

[makedonche]

What is it that the Macedonian Community in Victoria is suffering from?
Neseri Gluposti, all the churches under the vladika are excelling and greatly too, this is a fact that is there for all to see, with the other churches i dont care, vie si znajte.
But dont start slandering and assuming that people are ovci and you know what is best for them, Dali si ti that religious that you know more about what way our peoples religious needs be met?
You have no idea nor do I or even others on this Forum.
Fortunetly you live in a free country, and you can choose whatever religion you like, you have choosen yours, and now you want to choose other peoples religion for them.
What are you some sort of Missionery or something?
You talk like the macedonians have no religion and your want to be their guiding force.
My advice to you is dont meddle into something that is beyond your control.

Zas
Thanks for participating in the thread, all comments and opinions are certainly welcome. I just can't believe what I'm reading here, you say all the churches under the Vladika are excelling and with the other churches you don't care - how can you not care about your fellow Macedonians? Don't you want them to be unified with more services and facilities? Don't you want to meet them and get to know them and share stories, laugh, joke, learn, dance & drink?
Nobody is slandering or assuming here, it is a highly sensitive issue and everyone has the same right to their opinions, the administrators will step in if anyone gets out of line.
Your energy would be better used addressing the problem and providing solutions on how we can heal these rifts, not having a go at someone just for having an opinion or stating what they believe to be the truth.
I urge you to put forward your ideas about how we can fix this issue and not just criticize other members here.

[makedonche]

Is this indicative of the manners and moral standards that are taught by Petar's missionaries?



What are they excelling at, exactly?

What do they do apart from collecting money from parishioners, pay undisclosed amounts to their priests and bishop, funding court cases to take over other community churches and build/rent/buy new money-making factories to divert people away from existing Macedonian churches?

What do they do in relation to the preservation and promulgation of the Macedonian identity and culture, and standing up for the human rights and freedoms of the Macedonian people?

Why don't YOU tell us exactly what they are doing with the Sunshine Centre?

Alexandrov
Thanks for your questions!

Zas
I look forward to a truthfull reply.

[Vangelovski]

ZAS,

I'd like to make a few comments.

Firstly, if you "have no idea" about your spiritual needs, a good place to start is the Bible. If you are genuinely interested in this, send me a PM.

Secondly, if you are unware of who owns Petar's churches, you can easily do a title search. Below are the links for NSW and VIC Title Search databases:

https://six.lands.nsw.gov.au/wps/por...online/menu.pl

https://www.landata.vic.gov.au/tpc/

You can easily find the same for other states with a simple google search.

Thirdly, the Bible seems to indicate local parish autonomy (in contradiction to the way Petar seeks to govern the churches in Australia). Paul, in the New Testament, established churches across Asia Minor and the Balkans, and while he maintained contact and provided spiritual guidance (teaching, encouragement and correction in matters of faith), it appears that he allowed each community to run its own affairs.

Fourthly, I am interesting in knowing what Petar has done to spread the Good News? This is his primary responsibility - to bring people to faith. Has Petar brought you to faith? Has he told you about the Good News, about Jesus?

[Prolet]

ZAS, What about Bishop Petar and Ljubco?

http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=makedonska+nacija&init=quick#!/photo.php?pid=4687815&id=127725938744