Macedonian Church Dispute in Australia

[makedonche]

From a professional capacity, please allow me to say that the practices described above by the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney are without a doubt as transparent as humanly possible and probably represent the highest benchmark that other communities can measure themselves by.

Well done Sydney!

RTG
I second that unequivocally and once again thank Alexandrov for contributing to the building blocks of a solid foundation for the unification of the Macedonian people and the communities! My humble gratitude Alexandrov - keep it coming!!!!!

[Risto the Great]

Risto, Anything thats bought with the church ie community hall,apartments,schools,gyms etc if its tied to the church then its owned by the church. Do you know how much Crkovno zemjiste is there in Stari Kraj where nobody can touch it and it must be given back through denacionalizacija.

The Adelaide church pre-dates the MOC if you want to get technical Prolet. Further, who has said anything was bought by the church? The church is merely one organ of the local community. You have made a rather huge assumption in the first instance and then used that assumption to justify ownership.

But I appreciate your perspective, it may well help to clear the confusion.

[makedonche]

Risto, Anything thats bought with the church ie community hall,apartments,schools,gyms etc if its tied to the church then its owned by the church. Do you know how much Crkovno zemjiste is there in Stari Kraj where nobody can touch it and it must be given back through denacionalizacija.

Aleksandrov, Do you believe in Hierarchy? Bishop Petar is not going to be around forever so when he is gone the structure will still be the same, i dont expect the titles to be under his name or to some other Bishop but it has to be done in someway so that its under the control of MPC.

The sad story is that we dont even have nursing homes,kindergartens etc Bishop Petar should not have tried to use force and make threats against the people, he should have brought up ideas so that our people have all those things. He comes to Australia once a year and expects everything to be done his way.

Prolet,
Thanks for your post, I think Alexandrov & RTG have addressed your main comments, hopefully to your satisfaction. My concern is with your comments about nursing homes, kindergartens etc., this is an issue very close to my heart and warrants some very serious attention!!
I believe we need to get going on these items urgently and also greater aged care/assistance at home. There is serious local,state and federal funding available for these projects which we need to tap into asap, to do this we need a central body/committee to lobby for these funds on a united front. We can't do any effective lobbying and funds procurement to any great degree with the disunity amongst the Macedonian organisations so it is imperative to get unity first and then go about planning aged care/kindergartens etc., to get unity we must first rid ourselves of the causes of disunity and impliment a plan to unify all communities, do you agree?

[Mikail]

Risto, this is how Prolet operates at times. He makes assumptions and then his own conclusions via those assumptions.

Sv Ilia in Melbournes west has a Priest who is related to the Vladika. This Priest is one of three beneficiaries of the take over of Macedonian Community properties here in Australia. It is also fact that this Priest is church President, Secretary and Treasurer! So now I ask, the rent he collects from the Chinese community by renting out the community hall, does this get put back into the community in some way? Or does this get funneled into a fighting fund to cause more divisions within our community?

Sv Dimitria in Springvale recently underwent an extension. Sv. Dimitria is also under the Vladikas control. The church was originally blessed by Timothy when he was Vladika. Petar tells the community that unless the church bears a brick with his signature it will be damned.

He is now charging the pensioners, the very people who built the church and community centre, rent to have their weekly meetings there. Many people are now leaving that church also.

[Risto the Great]

Mikail, Prolet is voicing the thoughts of many. I appreciate his questions in relation to the matter. Thanks for the other information.

[Prolet]

The fact that the ruler cannot be in place forever and that he/she will eventually be replaced by somebody different (possibly a person of lesser integrity) is reason enough not to grant anybody absolute power based on his/her formal title, even if that person is most righteous (and Petar is as far from righteous as anybody). Add to that the tendency of power to corrupt and of absolute power to corrupt absolutely, and you will realize that absolute hierarchical power is an evil in itself, regardless of who holds it on the day.

Goni gi upravnicite, mrazi gi i vostanuvaj protiv sekoj vlastelin. - Goce Delchev

Liberty has never come from the government [church governments are no different]. Liberty has always come from the subjects of it. The history of liberty is a history of resistance [do some research on Jesus' resistance against the religious hierarchy of his day if you want a church example]. ~ Woodrow Wilson

Aleksandrov, So whats the best way to go about it? How can you trust the others from not doing what they like?? There is no government body who can protect the properties, how will MPC have any jurisdiction over churches and monasteries? Just look at the Vatican they control all the Catholic Churches world wide and those who dont listen to them dont get very far.

Point being how do you bring back the law and order aswell as the Trust to the people?? Because whatever me or you say there will still be people who have their own beliefs thats are either with or against the Vladika.

[Vangelovski]

Aleksandrov, So whats the best way to go about it? How can you trust the others from not doing what they like?? There is no government body who can protect the properties, how will MPC have any jurisdiction over churches and monasteries? Just look at the Vatican they control all the Catholic Churches world wide and those who dont listen to them dont get very far.

Point being how do you bring back the law and order aswell as the Trust to the people?? Because whatever me or you say there will still be people who have their own beliefs thats are either with or against the Vladika.

Prolet,

You do raise a good question, and seeing as we are talking about the church, and church organisation in particular, maybe the guiding principals should come from the Bible? What does the Bible say about church hierarchy? What does the Bible teach us about church organisation?

[Mikail]

Prolet, you can't use the Vatikan as an example. This is an institution which has been around for centuries. Unfortunately, the Macedonian Orthodox Church has not been around so long.

Petar could have been our holy messiah. He could have worked at bringing us all together and help in healing the wounds of a divided community due to our divided homeland.

He chose not to be a spiritual leader. He chose to seize control of Macedonian community property here instead.

This turkey I met in Sydney told me that Sv Gjorgi was a private company owned by Risto Altin and that his children our now the beneficiaries. I informed him this was not fact and that Altins children had no involvement in the community there.

There is a lot of misinformation being thrown about and many are unwilling to question what is being said. Petar is using his priests to spread this misinformation and people are reticent to question a priest.

[Prolet]

Prolet,
Thanks for your post, I think Alexandrov & RTG have addressed your main comments, hopefully to your satisfaction. My concern is with your comments about nursing homes, kindergartens etc., this is an issue very close to my heart and warrants some very serious attention!!
I believe we need to get going on these items urgently and also greater aged care/assistance at home. There is serious local,state and federal funding available for these projects which we need to tap into asap, to do this we need a central body/committee to lobby for these funds on a united front. We can't do any effective lobbying and funds procurement to any great degree with the disunity amongst the Macedonian organisations so it is imperative to get unity first and then go about planning aged care/kindergartens etc., to get unity we must first rid ourselves of the causes of disunity and impliment a plan to unify all communities, do you agree?

Makedonche, I agree this is all part of lobbying and this is why the Church dispute must be solved, im not talking about having to negotiate with tvrdi glavi here, there has to be a way were the people can gain trust and use the funds that people give to the church,donations,labor work,donations to build something that is beneficial to our community. Not spend tens of millions in Legal Costs its not doing anybody any good.

Mikail, Who is Timothy? Surly you mean Timotej

Our community is the only one that doesnt have its own Schools,Child Care Facilities etc If you look at the Greek,Italian Communities they have plenty to go around. I dont think MPC has gotten its house in order to begin with, its been rocked by many scandals and they have never really tried to solve this issue from their part.

Mikail, So put Bishop Petar aside lets say he is gone, what happens then?? We leave things how they are now?

Risto, Spolaj Ti

[Prolet]

Vangelovski, You raise a good point i was thinking the same thing. The Sveshtenici should not be involved with the finances, there needs to be a proper restructure with the finances so that the Sveshtenici can concentrate on their work and look to Boga. Like you mentioned they should be spreading the good news and preach to the people, but all this has gone out the window.

Make no mistake, the church dispute to me is on par with name recognition you cant move an inch without clearing up your own backyard first (Getting your house in Order) its extremely important that people sit down and look for a solution, whats done is done we cant change it but we can change what happens in the future.

Mikail, MPC originates from Ohrid, it lost ground during the Ottoman Empire and the Serbian,Greek and Bulgarian Occupations, its always been around but it was under occupation. How do the other communities deal with these issues? Like the Buddhist,Himdu,Muslim etc Everybody has to deal with finances.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski, You raise a good point i was thinking the same thing. The Sveshtenici should not be involved with the finances, there needs to be a proper restructure with the finances so that the Sveshtenici can concentrate on their work and look to Boga.

Prolet,

I didn't say anything about the clergy or finances. Rather, I was thinking out loud about the Biblical perspective of Church hierarchy and organisation, which you aluded to in your previous post. I'm looking into it right now...

[makedonche]

Prolet,
"Makedonche, I agree this is all part of lobbying and this is why the Church dispute must be solved, im not talking about having to negotiate with tvrdi glavi here, there has to be a way were the people can gain trust and use the funds that people give to the church,donations,labor work,donations to build something that is beneficial to our community. Not spend tens of millions in Legal Costs its not doing anybody any good."

I see your heart is in the right place and you appear aligned with the Macedonian Cause and wanting to take part in the unifying of our people, which I commend. Alexandrov posted methodology as to funds handling and accountability and quite frankly it doesn't get any more transparent than that - with that in place peoples trust will return and they will contribute more as long as they see their money used for positive things that give them a return on their money e.g. contributing to an aged care fund should give you some rights under that fund and access to the services that fund supplies! The tens of millions wasted on legal fees could have supplied most of the very things we are speaking about, so I ask the questions why was it spent on legal fees? Who instigated these legal proceedings? of what benefit have they been? - see if you can answer these questions for me!

[Mikail]

Prolet, don't go getting yourself bogged down in pedantics mate. He was Bishop Timothy and Vladika Timotej. This is not up for debate. I know where the MPC originates and understand the plight we as a people have faced for a millennium. This is also not up for debate.

The church and Petar is one large part of the problem. The other part of the problem is the division of our land and the "nie" i "vie" mentality which is born as a result.

One side lived under Greek Dictatorship. The other side lived under similar circumstance, ruled out of Belgrade and covered under the veil of communism.

Baba mi bese tuka od Bitola za poslednite tri meseci. Bese intersno da ja slusam so majkami da zborvaat. Kaj nas taka, a pa kaj nas inaku. Nasite crkvi prajea taka, a nie ne paevme ko vas ect, etc.......

I had to sit the two old ladies down and explain something they had long forgotten.

Nema nie i vie. Ti majko zhivejese pod grkska okupacija i grcite vi nateraja taka da prajte. I vie odevte na grkska crkva i grkskite popoj taka vi nateraja da naprajte.

A pa ti babo zhivejse pod srbska okupacija. I vie bevte naterani da odite pod druk nacin. Vasata crkva bese pod srbska kontrola.

Here is the basis of the problems our people face. "Nie" i "Vie" If we kick this in the butt we will move along with leaps and bounds.

We can't blame the church all on it's own and the problem won't go away if we take Petar out of the equation.

The answer lies within and only we can bring about this change in attitude.

If anyone hasn't seen it yet. Check out the clips here, http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2782 this tells us a lot about how our peoples attitudes were shaped by co-operation between Belgrade and Athens.

[Prolet]

Mikail, Who is better in your opinion? Bishop Petar or Bishop Timotej? He was hardly around, he barely came to Australia.

I agree with that theory, they keep saying Nie and Vie when infact its the same thing.

[gore na nitche]

Hello everyone

Im for the Macedonian Orthodox church owing church assets. Im against the way the church went about doing it.
How about the MOC buy the church assets off the community. This way the community can use the money to build cultral centres and whatever else. If the MOC didnt have the money to buy im sure if they went on a collection drive the $$ would have been raised by now Everybody wins

Pak Makedonci sa yadat za nishto.