The Xinjiang Region of China

[Delodephius]

And here's the grammar and text samples of Tocharian. Note there were two Tocharian languages, usually just called A and B, the first one was liturgical and older the other was the vernacular and younger.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/tokol-0-X.html

Sample:
1 kāsu ñom-klyu tsraṣiśśi śäk kälymentwaṃ sätkatär.
yärk ynāñmune nam poto tsraṣṣuneyā pukäṣ kälpnāl;
yuknāl ymāräk yäsluñcäs, kälpnāl ymāräk yātlune.

2 tsraṣiśśi māk niṣpalntu tsraṣiśśi māk śkaṃ ṣñaṣṣeñ.
nämseñc yäsluṣ tsraṣisac, kunseñc yärkant tsraṣisac.
tsraṣiñ waste wrasaśśi, tsraṣiśśi mā praski naṣ.

3 tämyo kāsu tsraṣṣune pukaṃ pruccamo ñi pälskaṃ.

4 tsraṣṣuneyo tämne neṣ praṣtaṃ Siddʰārtʰes lānt se Sarvārtʰasiddʰe bodʰisattu sāmudraṃ kārp, ñemiṣiṃ praṅkā yeṣ. 5 ñemintuyo ypic olyiyaṃ sārtʰ Jambudvipac pe yāmuräṣ, ṣpät koṃsā kñukac wraṃ kälk, ṣpät koṃsā pokenā kälk, ṣpät koṃsā lyomaṃ kälk. 6 ṣpät koṃsā wälts pältwāyo oplāsyo wraṃ opläṣ oplā kārnmāṃ kälkoräṣ, päñ kursärwā ārṣlāsyo rarkusāṃ tkanā kälk. 7 tmäṣ rākṣtsāśśi dvipaṃ yeṣ, tmäṣ yakṣāśśi, tmäṣ Baladvipaṃ yeṣ. 8 tmäṣ śtwar-wäknā ārṣlāsyo rarkuñcäs iṣanäs kcäk. śtwar-wäknā speṣinäs kluṃtsäsyo sopis Sāgares lānt lāñci waṣt pāṣäntās śāwes empeles nākās āsuk kätkoräṣ, Sāgareṃ lāntäṣ cindāmaṇi wmār toriṃ kälpāt, poñcäṃ Jambudvipis ekrorñe wawik. 9 ślak śkaṃ -- Ṣāmnernaṃ

māski kätkāläṃ ktäṅkeñc tsraṣiñ sāmuddrä,
traidʰātuk saṃsār tsraṣṣuneyo ktäṅkeñc kraṃś.
kälpnāntär toriṃ puttiśparäṃ wärṣṣältse.
mā=pärmāt tsru-yärm yātal yatsi tsraṣṣune.

10 mā täpreṃ saṃ poñcäṃ saṃsāris kāripac sāspärtwu ālak wram naṣ kosne ālāsune. 11 kyalte neṣ wrasaśśi sne-wāwleṣu sne-psäl klu śwātsi ṣeṣ, kalpavṛkṣäntwaṃ ārwar papyätkunt wsālu yetweyntu waṣlaṃ ṣeñc-äṃ. 12 ālāsāp klu kropluneyā kalpavṛkṣäntu nakäntäm, kappāñ pākär tākaräm. 13 sne-wāwleṣu sne-psäl klu naktäm, śāwaṃ wlesaṃtyo psälaśśäl pākär tākam. cami ālāsuneyis nu tsraṣṣune pratipakṣ nāṃtsu. tämyo tsraṣṣune ñi ārkiśoṣyaṃ pukaṃ pruccamo pälskaṃ.


Translation

1 "The good fame of the strong spreads in the ten directions.
Reverence, respect, obeisance, (and) honor (are) to be attained through strength from everyone.
To be conquered quickly (are) enemies. To be obtained quickly (is) prosperity.

2 Of the strong (there are) great riches; of the strong (are) also many relatives.
Enemies bow down before the strong; to the strong come honors.
The strong (are) the protection of creatures; of the strong there is no fear.

3 Therefore strength (is) good (and) in every way the best (thing) in my opinion.

4 "By means of strength thus, at an earlier time, the son of king Siddhartha, the Bodhisattva Sarvarthasiddha descended upon the ocean. He went to the island of jewels. 5 With a caravan to Jambudvipa also having been made in a ship filled with jewels, for seven days he walked up to the neck in water; for seven days with the arms he walked; for seven days in mud he walked; 6 for seven days in water with lotuses with a thousand leaves, ascending from lotus to lotus he went; five leagues he walked though a place covered by snakes. 7 Thereupon he went to the island of the Raksasas, then to the island of the Yaksas, to Baladvipa, he went. 8 Thereupon he traversed the moats covered by four sorts of snakes. Nets with four sorts of Sphatika thread guarding the royal house of king Sagara, the great, awful Nagas having traversed completely, he obtained the Cintamani-stone, the precious, from king Sagara. Of all Jambudvipa the sickness he caused to disappear. 9 And so (in samner-meter):

"The ocean difficult to cross the strong cross.
The threefold world (of) existence by strength the good cross.
The superior obtain precious Buddhahood.
Strength is not capable of performing a disgrace (even) to a small degree.

10 "There is not another thing (which has) become (lit. turned) so for the injury of the entire world as (has) sloth. 11 For formerly of men without work (there) was chaffless rice to eat. In the kalpa-trees ready prepared for them to wear were clothing and ornaments. 12 The rice of the slothful (man) (to be had) by gathering and the kalpa-trees disappeared for them. Miseries (?) were plainly before them. 13 Without work (and) without chaff the rice disappeared for them. By great labor and with chaff a store of grain was for them. 14 Indeed of this, sloth being the opposite, therefore, strength (is) in the world in my opinion altogether the best thing."

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks Slovak. What are your thoughts with regard to the origin of these people? Which IE language(s) do they share most affinities with? Here is a comparison table:

[Delodephius]

They could have been a remnant of some ancient IE movement east that adopted a nomadic lifestyle. Since they spoke a centum language, they must have left Europe after the centum/satem split occurred. Their language forms its own branch of IE and so is not so visibly similar to any particular IE language. I see similarities with almost every IE group, but mostly it seems like Sanskrit and Latin combined in some way. This might be due to its centum origin yet exiting so far east among satem languages.

[Delodephius]

‪The Tocharians - Indo-Europeans of the East‬‏ - YouTube

[Onur]

Chinese government made up that name of Xinjiang after they first invaded Uygur territory about 100-120 years ago. That place was called as Turkestan for more than 1000 years but it`s currently forbidden in China to use that name.

Chinese government constantly transporting Chinese people to there. They are building factories in there but they don't allow Uygurs to work in there. You know, there are communist rules in there and Chinese government can pick up anyone above 18 years old and force them to work anywhere they want. They get Chinese people from southern side and let them work in Turkestan but at the same time, they force young Uygurs to go to inner China and work there. They are separating Uygur families with this policy and as a result of that, half of the population in Turkestan is Chinese for some time. Uygur population constantly drops while Chinese population increases nonstop in Turkestan.

They are also extremely allergic to anything non-Chinese in Turkestan, even including these mummies. For a very long time, it was forbidden to do archeological research, DNA tests on these mummies. They are still following strict policy for any research about Tocharians, Uygurs etc.

They could have been a remnant of some ancient IE movement east that adopted a nomadic lifestyle. Since they spoke a centum language, they must have left Europe after the centum/satem split occurred.

Tocharians must have been nomadic people who wandered between China to Europe, probably involving in trade business between east and west during ancient times. You cannot know if they have left Europe or left central Asia for Europe. You also cannot say that they belong to a particular place. These people had no homeland in today`s sense. They were just wandering around central Asia and most likely going to central Europe from Turkestan in just few weeks with a horse. Living in yurts in some place during summers, and in another place for winters. But ofc they were definitely not Chinese but Caucasian people.

Today`s Uygur people are like ~60% Caucasian, ~%40 Mongolic according to DNA tests. But this is definitely the result of Genghis Khan era. It`s known that Mongol army of Genghis Khan did massive massacres upon Uygur population and most of the today`s %40 Mongolic Uygurs are in fact Turkicized Mongols remaining from Genghis Khan era and ofc the rest are Chinese people who mingled with Uygurs.

they must have left Europe after the centum/satem split occurred.

Why "must"?

Similar archeological findings exists in Europe but never older than 2nd BC at most while the ones in Turkestan are as old as 4500 year old. So, we can also claim that rather than coming from Europe, these people left central Asia for finally settling in Europe.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You cannot know if they have left Europe or left central Asia for Europe.

Actually, you can, because Tocharian is a Centum language. All Centum languages developed west of the PIE divide, whereas Tocharian finds itself east of this divide into Satem territory.

But ofc they were definitely not Chinese but Caucasian people.

Onur, do you think Turkic peoples originated as a Mongoloid or Caucasian element?

[Onur]

Actually, you can, because Tocharian is a Centum language. All Centum languages developed west of the PIE divide, whereas Tocharian finds itself east of this divide into Satem territory.

According to linguistic theories and language reconstruction attempts, you are right but i repeat, according to "theories"!

But for a proof, you gotta show me archeological findings from Europe predating the 4000 year old mummies, clothing, objects founded in Uygur Turkestan. As for now, the oldest European type of woven clothing and other objects comes from Uygur lands but the ones in Europe are ~2200 year old as oldest. We don't say that European race is "Caucasian" for out of nothing. It`s because this type of race originates from Caucasus.

Also, like i said, it`s pointless to try to give a particular ethnicity and particular homeland for these ancient people. They were simply nomadic Eurasians who wonders between today`s Mongolia and central Europe for 1000s of years. You gotta consider that there was no borders, no custom checks in ancient times and these nomadic people were able to go to today`s France from Siberia in just few weeks.

We don't know which society these Tarim mummies belongs either. Tocharians are just an assumption because there was no written document by these mummies.

Onur, do you think Turkic peoples originated as a Mongoloid or Caucasian element?

None of Eurasian people can be considered as an homogenous society due to their nomadic lifestyle and they never were homogenous even in ancient times. Turkic peoples was not fully caucasian but they were definitely predominantly caucasian. Already, you can see from the documentary linked above, there was not a single Mongolic mummy in Turkestan before 2nd BC. All the older mummies than 2nd BC was only caucasians but mongolic mummies starts to appear after 2nd BC.

Even after devastating effect of Mongol advancement in 13th century and the proximity with Chinese people, the easternmost Turkic speaking Uygurs are 40% Mongolic and this number gradually lowers as we go to the west and drops to 5-6% in Turkey. It`s 3-4% in Hungary but in the eastern side, Russian population is 9-10% Mongolic.

If Huns would be predominantly Mongols, then i can assure you that you would see lots of slant eyed people in today`s slavic speaking countries in Europe and many more in Hungary. Nearly half of the Hungarian population was Avars, Pechenegs and Cumans in 13th century, if they were Mongols, then where are these Mongolic people now? Same for Serbia, Croatia and others. Where are the Avars among them now? How about Avars in Greece? Cumans in Romania, Macedonia, Bulgaria??


I had this in my bookmarks. This is a DNA analysis of a grave site of Hunnic ruling elites of 2000 years ago in today`s Mongolia. Even the Huns before the advance of Attila to the west was not Mongols. They analyze 9 mummies here and only two of them are Mongols, C type DNA, 7 of them are R1a Caucasians;

A Western Eurasian Male Is Found in 2000-Year-Old Elite Xiongnu Cemetery in Northeast Mongolia;

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25822768/Full-Text

[George S.]

Does anyone know why they dissappeared???If these people are white caucasian which people do they form affinity with.?

[Onur]

Here is another video which shows the excavation of the graves and the footage of the mummies;

‪European mummies in China desert‬‏ - YouTube


Found these on web;

A selection of photos of famous Tarim mummies from the Xinjiang Uygur region of China. Most of the mummies has European features and high growth. Their age ranges from 4000 to 2000 years.













Notice the sun tattoo on this mummy;



A tattooed mummy again;

[Delodephius]

Onur, I doubt your knowledge of archaeology. I already know you are pathetic with IE linguistics.

[Risto the Great]

If Huns would be predominantly Mongols, then i can assure you that you would see lots of slant eyed people in today`s slavic speaking countries in Europe and many more in Hungary.

But you do see many almond shapes eyes in this region. Which I personally find attractive in women ... I even married one

[Onur]

Btw, these fair skinned/haired and tattooed horseman mummies are not special to northern China. It can be found literally anywhere in Eurasia. The ones in Altai mountains, in a place called Pazyrk are the most magnificent ones. These findings are from 5th century BC to 1st century AD, found in kurgans in Altai mountains. The clothing, weapons and other objects are much more sophisticated here due to their recent time;

http://artmagik.webs.com/

A 2,500-year-old man has been found in Siberia's Altai Mountains. The Horseman, 25 to 30 years old, had been impaled by an enemy's weapon or animal's horn. His face and hands have not survived well, but the rest of his skin and muscles and his braided hair are in good condition, as is a tattoo of a deer on his right shoulder. He was wearing a thick wool cap, high leather boots, and a marmot and sheepskin coat. The Horseman was buried with his bow, arrows, ax, and knife. The horse wore a harness richly decorated with griffins and animals carved in wood and covered in gold foil;




The Scythian Pazyryk Chieftan is heavily tattooed down both arms, on his back and front and legs. The tattoos appear blue and are of stylized animals;











Various objects and tools;






Horse mask in form of deer antlers;




World`s oldest fully preserved carpets;










Carriage (reconstructed from dismantled pieces);




Hand Drum;


Notice how similar it is with today`s hand drums.

[Soldier of Macedon]

According to linguistic theories and language reconstruction attempts, you are right but i repeat, according to "theories"!

Onur, the reconstruction isn't just based on a theory - it is based on a logical interpretation of the facts. That you would dismiss the obvious not only demonstrates your own ignorance with respect to IE linguistics, it shows that your bias takes precedence over the truth. Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the difference between centum and satem languages before we proceed on this point, otherwise it would be pointless.

As for now, the oldest European type of woven clothing and other objects comes from Uygur lands but the ones in Europe are ~2200 year old as oldest.

Do you think this had anything to do with Turkic peoples?

Turkic peoples was not fully caucasian but they were definitely predominantly caucasian.

That may be true today, but I don't agree that it was in earlier times, at least not before they started moving westward and mixing with IE peoples (mostly of the eastern or Indo-Iranian type).

This is a DNA analysis of a grave site of Hunnic ruling elites of 2000 years ago in today`s Mongolia. Even the Huns before the advance of Attila to the west was not Mongols. They analyze 9 mummies here and only two of them are Mongols, C type DNA, 7 of them are R1a Caucasian.......

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that some IE peoples moved eastward as far as Mongolia at some point, probably during the spread of PIE.

If Huns would be predominantly Mongols, then i can assure you that you would see lots of slant eyed people in today`s slavic speaking countries in Europe and many more in Hungary.

There are plenty. In fact, Balkan peoples often have a slightly slanted look which distinguishes them from western Europeans in many (but not all) cases.

[Onur]

Onur, the reconstruction isn't just based on a theory - it is based on a logical interpretation of the facts. That you would dismiss the obvious not only demonstrates your own ignorance with respect to IE linguistics, it shows that your bias takes precedence over the truth. Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the difference between centum and satem languages before we proceed on this point, otherwise it would be pointless

SOM, all of these are just hypothesis of different linguists. There is no attested language as Proto-IE. This is a reconstructed theoretical forms of IE, based on the interpretations of several linguists of the last century.

It`s logical interpretations as you said but that doesn't make them facts since we don't know what kind of language early IE people spoke, we can only estimate by looking at the attested development of it from Hittites IE language `till today. All these terms, centum-satem-PIE are just hypothetical concepts. There is no single concept either. There are 10s of different language reconstruction theories proposed by different linguists.

Thats what i am talking about.

Do you think this had anything to do with Turkic peoples?

I don't know. No one knows but it`s quite obvious that we have similar culture with these people.

That may be true today, but I don't agree that it was in earlier times, at least not before they started moving westward and mixing with IE peoples (mostly of the eastern or Indo-Iranian type).

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that some IE peoples moved eastward as far as Mongolia at some point, probably during the spread of PIE.

Your words are based on a theory of the last century, which was; "Turks was homogenous Mongol people, therefor any Caucasian people must be assimilated IE speaker of Iranian, Aryan etc." Thats why when i show you that even the Hunnic elites b4 Attila was mostly R1a Caucasians, you give a response like "IE people probably moved eastwards".

This theory has no proof. It`s just based on a assumption and a belief of "Turkic people are not Caucasians, all Caucasians among them must be assimilated IE speakers".

I completely refute this primitive theory and i am not alone on this. This theory has been created when everyone in western world was in a hurry to create standard look and skull shape of their own nation!!!. Every anthropologist was creating charts which shows the skull shapes of their own people, like Aryan, Nordic, Alpine etc. and they put some picture of Genghis Khan and told that "all Turks are like that". These were just futile attempts under hidden political motives cuz in that times, they were trying to form an united Europe based on common christian and Aryan beliefs and this was required to eradicate European part of Turkey, Ottoman empire.

There are plenty. In fact, Balkan peoples often have a slightly slanted look which distinguishes them from western Europeans in many (but not all) cases.

I know there are some in there and ofc more in Turkey. Thats why i said that Eurasians was never homogenous.

I said that there would be even more than this if Huns would be predominantly Mongolic. It wouldn't be just almond eyes, there would be more distinctive features.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It`s logical interpretations as you said but that doesn't make them facts since we don't know what kind of language early IE people spoke, we can only estimate by looking at the attested development of it from Hittites IE language `till today. All these terms, centum-satem-PIE are just hypothetical concepts.

Onur, I know that there is no recorded PIE language, and that there are a number of theories on how such a language may have developed and subsequently spread out. However, for some matters logical interpretation is as good as fact, particularly when distinguishing between centum and satem languages - that part is not a concept, it is an established fact which is evidenced in today's IE languages. I still don't think you really know the difference between the two groups, so again I will suggest that you do some further research.

I don't know. No one knows but it`s quite obvious that we have similar culture with these people.

These items were in existence centuries prior to Turkic Uyghurs settling the area, used by people who spoke an IE language, not a Turkic one. If there are similarities then it means they were adopted by the Uyghurs after they invaded the region.

Your words are based on a theory of the last century, which was; "Turks was homogenous Mongol people, therefor any Caucasian people must be assimilated IE speaker of Iranian, Aryan etc." Thats why when i show you that even the Hunnic elites b4 Attila was mostly R1a Caucasians, you give a response like "IE people probably moved eastwards".

If the Tocharians could make it to Xinjiang I don't see why they couldn't have made it to Mongolia either. Do you think the original Altaic speakers looked more like Caucasians despite the fact that this proposed linguistic group includes not only Turkic and Mongolian, but also Japanese and Korean? Or do you think Turkic peoples were originally Caucasian who adopted an Altaic language? Where do you think the Altaic group of languages originated?