Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[julie]

I love David Cameron's reference to Greece in an article he wrote in 2003 - FOPOG, it rolls nicely off the tongue too.

[johnMKD]

I love David Cameron's reference to Greece in an article he wrote in 2003 - FOPOG, it rolls nicely off the tongue too.

Hahah...indeed! Let's say that Macedonia should now press Greece to change it's name into FOPOG!!!:rmacedonia

[Jankovska]

Sometimes for others to help you you need to help yourself. Our goverments have never tried to help Macedonia. This is why we are where we are.

[Vangelovski]

I do condemn and seek such declaration of the IA as 'null and void' and maybe you have not followed me 2 years ago so you might think or it suit to you thinking something else.

I start to think you are having your own purposes in playing the dumb here since I think I made myself enough clear.

You insinuate that I support "no change to the constitutional name" but I seek "another name" for international use as long as we get in NATO/EU - meaning double formula.

Than you compose your question to look as you confronte my 'real' position which you invented for yourself.

Your delussional argumentation say "no name change" and "no entering NATO/EU under the temp. reference " by presenting the reference as actually being the "international name" chosen by us.

The IA is already 15 years in USE, so if the temp. reference (that you obviously have difficulty to understand) was already a double name, we wouldn't be able to get more new countries to recognize us under the constitutional name and keeping that trend and we wouldn't be able to in practice the constitutional name in some of the internatinal relations including the bilatteral too.

The reference is exactly what it is - provisional reference - to be used only until the dispute is solved.

The provisional reference is NOT a name and what is more important to underline: "for all purposes within the United Nations"

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UND...df?OpenElement


The question we should ask our self is why we allowed the provisional reference to be used outside of the UN and why we don't react to this nor for the acronym invention being in use by the Greeks!?!?

Important to mention that Greece haven't adopted the UN provisional reference and did not recognise our country under any name.

The reference is in USE whether we are or not members in NATO/EU, so if you really seek to abandon this IA and the provisional reference you should seek a solution.
The easiest way is to say - 'Just withdraw from the IA and that's it'.

It will pull appropriate consequences on us, whether you like to admit that or not, but if we show patience for lets say 5 additional years by becoming a NATO member meaning - getting bettered our diplomatic position and prevailing the use of our constitutional name within NATO (the ex. of Turkey) soon this provisional reference will become irrelevant and in such position we can easily abandon the IA with no consequences and without giving Greece the posibility to blackmail us further.

Basically we differ in the approaches in how to 'null and void' the IA, I would rather wait additional 10 - 20 years but to secure total win, than acting instictively and sabotage my long term interest and cause by putting myself in a position of being easily subjected of any kind of presure and have poor diplomatic tools to defend myself properly.

So, I would rather put it up with being a traitor in your dellusive eyes for the next 10 years but to provide prosper and a long term victory.

Bratot,

I don't think I understood a word of what you just posted here. I'm not sure where you get some of your information or how you have come up with some of your conclusions.

You claim you don't want to change the "constitutional" name AND you are comfortable with using "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" to enter the EU/NATO. Then you claim that there you are not advocating two names, yet you haven't explained how using a different name to 'Republic of Macedonia' to enter international organisations does not equate to a SECOND name. In summary, you have stated that you would accept:

1) Republic of Macedonia as the "constitutional" name; and
2) the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia for use in international organisations.

How many names can you count there?

Secondly, you have not stated WHY we need to be in a "better position" to declare the Interm Accord 'null and voild'.

Thirdly, if Macedonia continues to seek EU/NATO membership with the Interim Accord in place, you have not answered the question in relation to Greece's demand for a "permanent" solution and international guarantees to prevent Macedonia from agreeing to a name solution and then (according to you, when the time is "right") changing its name back to Macedonia.

Macedonia already applied to enter NATO as FYROM and Greece vetoed the application. How did you conclude that Greece would now allow Macedonia to join the EU/NATO as FYROM, two years on? What has changed according to you? What makes you think that Greece will not seek international guarantees to prevent Macedonia from "changing its name back" once an "final" agreement has been reached?

[indigen]

FYROM is indeed a Greek invention. I guess it's too difficult for them to say PGDM (ΠΓΔΜ) in Greek or they will swallow their tongues with so many consonants. FYR Macedonia is what the UN document states also in my opinion. i.e. it is Macedonia that used to be under the Yugoslavian state (control).

It has a lot of official usage and it is "six of these and half a dozen of the other" which designation is used, meaning it is the same anti-Macedonian shit whether one uses the acronym or the full "temporary" reference for "internal UN use ONLY", as Gligorov hoodwinked the simpleton suckers back in 1993. Gligorov and Co. also said it would only be in use for a few months only (17 years later and he is still worshiped by some morons!). IMO, both designations are equally degrading and play the same DECONSTRUCTION role of the Macedonian national entity and should be extinguished ASAP, i.e. they should never be contemplated as acceptable in any shape or form.

[indigen]

Here is the original document of the Interim Accord as found on the United Nations' webpage.

http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/6/3/00004456.pdf

Please notice that the interim name is "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and not FYROM.

If the name should be shortened it should be written like this, FYR Macedonia. This is my humble opinion.

Daskale, do you want to start a "patriotic" campaign and get Macedonians writing bs letters pointing out the above "denigration" of the "Former Yugoslav Macedonian" identity? Maybe Bratot can become the PRESIDENT for the "INTERIM COMMITTEE to DEFEND the DIGNITY of "THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC of MACEDONIA" (what a mouthful of a name!)?

[Coolski]

Hahah...indeed! Let's say that Macedonia should now press Greece to change it's name into FOPOG!!!:rmacedonia

... and the English should tell FOPOG to change its flag, rather than using symbols from England. They clearly have territorial aspirations.

This is the flag of the East India Trading Company, which was in use well before FOPOG was granted independence by Western Europe.

[Daskalot]

Daskale, do you want to start a "patriotic" campaign and get Macedonians writing bs letters pointing out the above "denigration" of the "Former Yugoslav Macedonian" identity? Maybe Bratot can become the PRESIDENT for the "INTERIM COMMITTEE to DEFEND the DIGNITY of "THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC of MACEDONIA" (what a mouthful of a name!)?

I am just pointing out the absurdity of the acronym "FYROM" when no such exists as per the Interim Accord.

My stance on the issue is that Macedonia should enforce Article 23 of the Accord, it is our legal right to do so.

There is only one name for Macedonia and that is Macedonia, a fair compromise is our constitutional name the Republic of Macedonia.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

I don't think I understood a word of what you just posted here. I'm not sure where you get some of your information or how you have come up with some of your conclusions.

You did understand pretty much of what I wrote, but admiting you would have to walk with injured vanity.

You claim you don't want to change the "constitutional" name AND you are comfortable with using "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" to enter the EU/NATO. Then you claim that there you are not advocating two names, yet you haven't explained how using a different name to 'Republic of Macedonia' to enter international organisations does not equate to a SECOND name. In summary, you have stated that you would accept:

1) Republic of Macedonia as the "constitutional" name; and
2) the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia for use in international organisations.

How many names can you count there?

We go back to what I pointed out already, you don't understand what the "PROVISIONAL REFERENCE" means and it's range of formal employment.

By levelling this provisional reference with "international name" or a second name already puts you in checkmate position and it does serve the Gligorovist or how you call them who argue that now we seek another name to replace the provisional reference, which absolutely is NOT the case, since the reference is not a name and agreeing on to another name as solution for this dispute will mean giving up of the constitutional name.

Secondly, you have not stated WHY we need to be in a "better position" to declare the Interm Accord 'null and voild'.

Because of maintaining the current position and keeping us outside the structures (whether is important for you or not) of NATO/EU allows a condition of manipulating the low morality among the population and their perspective of safe future, internal political conspirations and vulnerable to diplomatic and ethnic tension pressure which can undermine our sovereignty.

Being a member will cut the Greek chance to blackmail us for a name change.


Or maybe the way of how Adonis Samaras have put it will help you:

1. “FYROM essentially stopped being a “national cradle of Macedonians” and became a multi-ethnic state with two separate ethnic components.“

2.“What we question from abroad – the existence of an ethnic state of “Macedonians”“

3. “For Skopje today, the dilemma is whether it will break up or whether – as some are claiming – it will be transformed into a loose multi-ethnic federation!“


His conclussion at the end:

“In every case, the “Macedonian idea” will have been defeated once and for all.“

How:

“ Such an outcome could prove beneficial to Greece, since when the Karamanlis government leaves Skopje out of NATO it will be Skopje’s responsibility. And we will gain time.“

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_ell_1_17/03/2008_94483

That's why they work together with Albanian interest if you haven't noticed the continuous demands of the Albanians synchronized with the solution for this dispute.

Thirdly, if Macedonia continues to seek EU/NATO membership with the Interim Accord in place, you have not answered the question in relation to Greece's demand for a "permanent" solution and international guarantees to prevent Macedonia from agreeing to a name solution and then (according to you, when the time is "right") changing its name back to Macedonia.

You not only miss the substance of this dispute but you really don't understand the Interim Accord.


We have signed to talk until we find a solution, we haven't signed a particular solution yet, and until that is solved we are refered only within UN under the provisional reference - NOT A NAME!

Which doesn't obligate us to solve this dispute before entering and that's why Greek objections were given on Court.

According to you we already changed our name which is not the case and we do NOT have to change anything back while entering any structure under the UN Agreement.

The ICJ is the only guarantee for both sides.

Macedonia already applied to enter NATO as FYROM and Greece vetoed the application. How did you conclude that Greece would now allow Macedonia to join the EU/NATO as FYROM, two years on? What has changed according to you? What makes you think that Greece will not seek international guarantees to prevent Macedonia from "changing its name back" once an "final" agreement has been reached?

Just to clarify, technically Greece did NOT vetoed us since there is NO such tool in NATO, every country deserves only a right "Not to vote" and by not voting of one member there cannot be achieved any consensus, which means blocking a decission.

Greece can not block us if the International Court of Justice - the UN official court with EXECUTIVE power will decide the IA has been violated by Greece and to allow Macedonia enter NATO while the IA is in use.

If Greece doesn't follow this decission of the ICJ it will mean breaking the international law directly which lead to diplomatic&political consequences and will provide more arguments to streighten our position and none of the Greek supportive member state will not go into further dirt ignoring the UN Court and violating it's decission in the name of Greek blamage.

That's probably all we can do as a small country having the international right on our side, after this we can continue with unilateraly withdrawing from the already broken Agreement.

I don't think the regional interest of Nato structure will be put in such failure and further loss of confidence among Macedonians for joining NATO which can lead into a change of the geopoltiical and strategic enviroment on Balkans.
Which will not be good for any side.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

I'll let your incoherence, circular logic and contradiction speak for itself.

[Bratot]

Vangelovski,

I'll let your incapability speak for itself.

[Vangelovski]

One last question, then I'll let you have the final say - have you been comparing notes with Buktop on your "grand strategy" to simultaneously deconstruct Macedonian sovereignty while magically ensuring its "existence"?

[Bratot]

Daskale, do you want to start a "patriotic" campaign and get Macedonians writing bs letters pointing out the above "denigration" of the "Former Yugoslav Macedonian" identity? Maybe Bratot can become the PRESIDENT for the "INTERIM COMMITTEE to DEFEND the DIGNITY of "THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC of MACEDONIA" (what a mouthful of a name!)?

Some economist have spent 13 years on a book about economic solutions, than he took the 250 pages of manuscript to be copied, only to have it reduced to 50,000 strips of paper in seconds when a worker confused the copier with the shredder.

[Bratot]

One last question, then I'll let you have the final say - have you been comparing notes with Buktop on your "grand strategy" to simultaneously deconstruct Macedonian sovereignty while magically ensuring its "existence"?

No Vangelovski, but I start to think you use Buktop in order to cover up for your lack of real arguments.
If you don't agree with my opinion don't dare to imply me with a wrong characteur since I won't get further more in this intelectually destructive debate.

If you have not noticed yet that your fundamental lack of familiarity about this subject have produce a opportunity for you to line up with the Gligorovists delussive terminology of "negotiating only for the provisional reference to be replaced" while hiding the real purpose.

We don't know eachother privately, but according to your reputation and credibility among the members of this forum I respect don't try to discredit my knowledge with cheap assumtions and insinuations since I'm not a person to tolerate that.

[indigen]

Some economist have spent 13 years on a book about economic solutions, than he took the 250 pages of manuscript to be copied, only to have it reduced to 50,000 strips of paper in seconds when a worker confused the copier with the shredder.

At crucial times over the last 20 or so years, whenever something is being COOKED and Macedonia and Macedonian national interests are the ingredients for the main meal, TROJAN HORSES get activated in Macedonian communities to start spreading ideological confusion and FUD.

Secondly, there are also many "well educated" and "highly intelligent" IGNORANT FOOLS about!

Lastly, we need to acertain what is the condition we are dealing with here, is it purely ignorance or a Trojan virus!?