Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Volk]

You bring up some valid points OziMak. If we look at the current government this is what they are focusing on:

Economy, Culture (archeology, symbolism, celebration of our history).

The whole nation is sick of these 'negotiations' but we have a gun to our heads, the only question is, is the barrel loaded?

The albanian are still our biggest problems, without them I have no doubt there would be no negotiations.

[Pelister]

I agree that we shouldn't be negotiating but I'm not sure if any Macedonian Government is ready to change our name...I can't see how one man or a group of men are prepared to do that and to go in history as committing such an act of outright treachery.

Sure, we've had the comments and statements of the political opportunists alluding to such things but I feel more often than not that such statements are purely of a political nature from opposition groups to put pressure on the Government of the day and I'm not convinced that if those same people were in power that they would persue a name change...

Unfortunately we find ourselves in a never ending cycle of futile talks, the process itself is disturbingly flawed and offers Macedonia very little comfort or avenue for success...somehow the Macedonian side has to find the political will to remove itself from this idiotic process.

Your right. Disturbingly flawed and very dangerous for us.

The key issue I think is that there is a firm belief that the aim of entering the E.U or these Western institutions, is identical to the aim of self-preservation. This is the deception, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

That is the problem right there, with all of its paradox's and contradictions. A more sobre and realistic appraisal of where we are as a State and as a people, the historical position of the West regarding the Macedonians, the lack of justice for us, our very poor treatment by this Western institution historically and presently, are things that just aren't there.

The Macedonians are a party to everything going on right now - and ultimately the responsibility lies with them. It would be an act of self-will and a show of independance to withdraw from these dangerous talks. If that were to happen, we would discover exactly 'Who' are enemies really are because they would be the ones jumping and shouting at us, or threatening us, or blackmailing us because we refuse to bend to their will.

[Serdarot]

Greek Newspaper: "severnomakedonski" language and Republic of Severna Makedonija"

Not that i trust the greek newspapers, but anyway worth comment it...

http://translate.google.de/translate?u=hthttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.a1.com.mk%2Fvesti%2Fdefault.aspx%3FVestID%3D120807&sl=mk&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

According to the newspaper, if Athens reconsider its position and respond positively to the name "Republic of Northern Macedonia", Washington was prepared to brief the Security Council of the United Nations that the name "FYROM" could be replaced with "Republic of Northern Macedonia", and language to as "severnomakedonski.

my godfather will be very insulted

[Prolet]

Serdarot, Whos the Kum?

[Simply Macedonian]

Notice that only A1 publish this story. It is not true. It is what the Greeks and their supporters in Macedonia want..but it is not true.

[Serdarot]

@ Simply Macedonian:

it is called "proben balon"

to see how ill the people react

but i asume this will soon happen, we will be brought before an ultimatum.

About A1 and its (traitor) role no need to waste words here, sad but thrue...
------


@ Prolet:

I dont know who is "Kum" of Makedonia.

The land is called Makedonia sooooooooo long, i guess except God, noone else knows exactly how long, and who called it Makedonia for first time...

I was writing about my Godfather. He will be very insulted.

My name is Goce / Georgi (Ѓорѓи, Ѓорѓија,на „галено“ Гоце)

One of my "familynames" is Makedonski... (i am planing to take it for a official surname when i move back to Macedonia)

So when my Kum baptised me, my name was Georgi XYZ* Makedonski

Now i have to change it to Georgi Severno-Makedonski?

It is not funny even in "Ednooki" (Macedonian Cartoon)

Not to speak how humiliating is in real life...


* = the other family name, one part of the family, my father included, use it as surname in the last 70 - 80 years.

Many families have more "surnames", like, the known and respected Family of Bibovi / Bibovci, is also know as "Dedo Kolevi" and "Pop-Filipovci" (po Dedo Koljo i Pop Filip)

or, one other part of my family, from same line several surnames

Jovkov(ci) / Joshev(ci) (Jovkovski, Joshevski)
Jankov(ci) / Jancev(ci) (Jankovski, Jancevski)
Mojancev(ci) (Mojancev, Mojancevski)
Stojancev(ci) / Stolev(ci) / Tolev(ci) (Stojanovski, Stolevski, Tolevski)

those who are from Bitolsko-Lerinsko Mariovo, and have one of those surnames, are probably my very close relatives. (if their roots are from Makovo, Rapezh, B´zovikj, Staravina, Budimirci, Gradeshnica, Skocivir )

In Dunje, Vitolishta and few other Mariovo Villages are not-so-close relatives.

[Rogi]

I think the Ednooki cartoon serves a good purpose and is quite well thought out.

In it they push the use of word 'Severnomakedonec' as a synonym for an idiot and all that is bad.



My maternal grandmother, bog da ja prosti, was from Staravina. My maternal grandfather, bog da go prosti, was also from the Mariovo villages, from Iveni.

[fyrOM]

We have many enemies externally but maybe more importantly as many enemies internally a1 being a prime example. Two other articles there suggest the new name is on and the likely result is going to be much like the Greek guy who is a German mep said a solution where neither side is going to be exactly happy.

Consider the first article


Meeting on behalf of the end of the month

http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=120758

08.03.2010 19:01

Head of Macedonian diplomacy Antonio Milososki confirmed negotiator Matthew Nimetz in March, will call the new meeting negotiators Jolevski and Vassilakis.

This negotiating round, Nimetz will present a new modified proposal for resolving the dispute almost dvodeceniskiot name.

Diplomatic sources in Skopje, but he announced the meeting of the two negotiators revealed that mediator Nimetz will come up with proposals for resolving the dispute dvodeceniskiot. Only know that the new Nimetz proposal will be based on a proposal by October 2008 that envisioned a new name for international use is Republic of Northern Macedonia.

Mediator of the United Nations late last month of meetings in Skopje and Athens have heard the positions of both sides, which are regarded as red lines.

Greek, a name with geographic determinant for overall usage and the Macedonian position that the UN resolutions and the Interim Agreement talks are held only on behalf of state for international use.

Immediately afterwards, possibly new, the third meeting of prime ministers of both countries on the sidelines of the summit of the European Union in Brussels. Proposed a new meeting Macedonian Prime Minister Gruevski.

Greek Prime Minister said nothing against the meeting but that it must be well prepared. Meanwhile the name dispute with Macedonia will be one of the topics under that Papandreou will discuss with U.S. President Barack Obama tomorrow in Washington.

now consider

Ivanov: UN Resolution is a Macedonian Red Line

http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=120616

04.03.2010 19:17

Resolution of the United Nations provides for discussions regarding the name of the state. For Macedonia it is the red line in the negotiations said today President George Ivanov, cutting the state plumbing svoevidniot peak for talks with mediator Matthew Nimetz in Skopje.

"For us red line is what is the resolution of the United Nations. You can not get out of what is already provided. There stands correct formulation should discuss the difference over the name. Nowhere does it mention any identity or language, "said President Ivanov.

State Ambassador Jolevski expected to learn the results of talks on Nimetz in Athens.

Many of the questions in the degree of confidentiality and would not now opened Ivanov said, adding that when that moment comes, the public will be presented all aspects of the problem of Greece with our constitutional name.

The Macedonian Foreign Ministry said the Nimitz was in constant contact with negotiators and Jolevski Vassilakis, reiterating that there is no sign yet of their joint meeting.

Official Athens believes that after several years of negotiations, the positions of both sides iskristalizira that solution is possible, provided it is not necessary political will.

Greece is the solution name with geographic determinant for overall usage. The United Nations mediator Matthew Nimetz in talks after meetings in Skopje and Athens that there are grounds for a decision, despite the obvious differences between the two sides.

Combining past information with these two articles and its starting to look like a mixed solution of the country is North Macedonia and the identity and language are Macedonian but at the same time the Greeks in Greek Macedonia also can call themselves Macedonian. The reasoning being we know there were these people called Macedonians but we also know most of you Greeks are immigrants from Egypt Syria and Lebanon ect who may have merged in and evolved into today’s modern Greeks and we also know the Slavs migrated to the area and probably merged with any original inhabitants to become the people who call themselves Macedonians today hence everybody can identify as Macedonians but the Republic of Macedonia cannot monopolise the name Macedonia thus the name change to North Macedonia. Has it made everyone unhappy yet.

The Greeks don’t want Republic of Macedonia to monopolise the name Macedonia hence the name change but by the same token the Greeks cannot monopolise the name then the part of Macedonia becomes South Macedonia. By doing this it avoids proving absolutely the ancient Macedonians were Greek or other and no one group can lay absolute claim to being exclusively the direct decedents and therefore inheritors of everything Macedonian.

Im not saying this is right im just saying look at the articles and what is this hidden information that will be told at the appropriate time.

[fyrOM]

False alarm

Mak Government: Greek Media ... Whitewash...

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/12957/45/

News report published in Greek daily To Vima regarding the alleged (nonexisting) proposal by the United States over name dispute is media hoax, sources in VMRO-DPMNE said.

"It is media trick, a deception, something the Greek Media is well known for, as the news article differs from official announcements made yesterday, sources in VMRO-DPMNE said on Wednesday.

Greek daily claimed that US President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton tabled a proposal to visiting Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou, suggesting that Republic of Northern Macedonia replaces the term fyrom and the language be referred to as North Macedonian.

Ironically, the same paper just few days ago reported of a 'serious' meeting between Droutsas and Milososki in Madrid. The meeting, of course, never took place.

[Mikail]

Unreal. I hope the EU, UN, NATO, US and Australia are taking note of these actions. Clearly Greece, its media outlets and its Government cannot be trusted in any way.

[osiris]

why should anyone take notice mihail if we dont make a stand and still continue these demeaning humiliating and destructive dialogues.

the afghans have stood up to russia and nato and all the other lapdogs like us, we on the other hand keep shaking hands and chatting like sovremeni i razbrani luge, while our dushmani keep up the pressure and the so called mediators keep up the charade.

its bullshit and its time to withdraw and make a stand, does anyone on here believe that there is a negotiable option i dont our name is non negotiable and will not be changed, let those western hypocrites deal with that.

[Mikail]

You're right Osiris. You know I don't support these ridiculous name negotiations. The only name the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia can be known by is Republic of Macedonia. All UN member nations must drop the Former Yugoslav tag. Not on Former Yugoslav Republic has had to go through such demeaning and humiliating discussions. We have even seen a new nation arise from the Former Yugoslavia in Kosovo.

The Macedonian Government must stop these discussions. They are ludicrous. We as a people have been humiliated fo long enough.

No one has been subjected to this sort of ridicule and it must end.

WORLD TAKE NOTE. THE GAME MUST END AND WE MUST BE SEEN AS CITIZENS OF THE WORLD. AS MACEDONIANS

[Volk]

Real Problems



Serb dancing aside, there seem to be more pressing matters....

http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?ItemID=982A53B991636D4BAB0F452984FE772F

[Soldier of Macedon]

This is a problem, but I wouldn't put Serb dancing aside as you would. How many times have you Serb danced, mate?

[Vangelovski]

So Gruevski has accepted a name change?