Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[goran]

reply

Hi there,

first of all, we wanted to creat this proposal as neutral as possible. therefore we choosed this name, under which Macedonia has become member of the UN. This name is still valid. when i talk to andreas, we always use just Macedonia and Macedonian.

regarding your questions:

1# Is this project of yours, some private thing that you both just decided to make?
:::::Yes, this project started as a private initiative by andreas and me. We thought, we have to do something to avoid international politicians to accept a name which is not the Republic of Macedonia. Every other name will not lead to a solutions. Greece has to accept this, if not they can use an other name, like Macedonia's prime minister always stated. the socalled double name, a name for greece, and a name for the rest.

2# Do you consider this project legitime in any way, or it is just some kind of University thing that you both decided to do?
:::: Why should a project not be legitime in any way? This has nothing to do with university or something else. The internet is the tool for communication. the have this tool - why shouldn't we use it to inform the world about Macedonia.

3# Do you think that you can push your project result to be accepted in anyway by both concerned Governments?
::: I am in contact with the responsible persons in Macedonia. Although there is no official position to our work (UN negotiations are still ongoing, therefore there will be no comments on this) we know, that we are very close to those proposals, which Macedonia gave in 2008. e.g. Macedonia recommended to establish an expert commission to talk about the antique Macedonia. The point was: if your are sure about your positions, you have nothing to loose. Greece could prove their claims. That is what we are doing, an expert commission is a good thing to solve open issues. Fact is: Greece denied it.

As you see, although this proposal is might a good one for greece as well, they will have major problems with any solution. the politician, who will accept a solution will die politically in Greece. The greek politicians have build a story about macedonia, that is is only greek, and so on, so they have to switch 180 degrees and tell the people, that they lied them.... this is by far more difficult.

I think Greece has no problem with R. of Macedonia at all. This issue is about power of the politicians in Greece. How to make the people there belive in someone who lied more than 20 years to you.

We know the truth, but Greece is denying it - they know why!

Imagine, Greece would recognize all their minorities, the turks, albanian, etc. possible seperations could follow. Greece is not that stable as all might thing.

Hi Goran,

thanx for steping out and speak about your project.

I won't hide that my first impression when I read your project in German was repulsive. From the comments given by the readers of your Blog (site) I could see that I was not the only one. There were Greeks as well Macedonians whose reaction was the same.

I have several concerns and question about your project, which I would put to you due to our conversation.

1# Is this project of yours, some private thing that you both just decided to make?

2# Do you consider this project legitime in any way, or it is just some kind of University thing that you both decided to do?

3# Do you think that you can push your project result to be accepted in anyway by both concerned Governments?

Please take your time, and if you can, answear my questions.

PS.

What I find repulsive and serving no supportive purpose to your project goal is the reference of "FYR Macedonia". But that is just me.

[goran]

reply

I am totaly with you.

Macedonia won't change it name, at least it would be the stupiest thing Macedonia could do.

by solving this issue with this proposal, Macedonia remains with its name, and gets a ticket for memberships to NATO and EU.

I know that Macedonia is sueing Greece for breaking the interim agreement of 1995, but this is life.We will win this trail - but without any political consequences....unfortunately.

Gospod ke gi kazni, eve gledame sto se desava tamu

Well said makgerman.

I would add to your statement that UN have shot it's own legs when they inforced this nagotiations according to Greek proposal.

It is basic human right to self determine. Identity can't be nagotiated by anyone, it is personal and solely given right to any individual and people to decide for them selfs.

So with other words, by keeping the nagotiations, we just state that we ain't certain of our identity.

As for the Greek claim that we are any dangere to their districts of Macedonia (west, central Macedonia and east Macedonia and Thracia districts), well the absurdity of that is self appering.

Botom line, the Greeks are not offering anything in return anyways.

[Rogi]

Goran,

What Right or privilege do you believe you have to be proposing solutions which effectively disregard my Right to self-determination and the Sovereignty and the Internationally accepted Sovereign Rights of the Republic of Macedonia?

The so-called solutions you speak of, are political in nature, whilst the issue is not. It is a legal issue. Delving into irrelevant arguments like the one about ancient history, detracts from the crux of this legal issue where Sovereign Rights and Human Rights are at stake - those arguments were created by Greece for the specific purpose of misdirecting the Macedonians into an argument about our history, and politicising it, instead of keeping to the real issue and the clear cut legal argument about our Rights, today.

The 'issues' of which you speak, can be left to the legal considerations and not the political ones. From a legal perspective, there is a very straight forward solution; adherence to the International Laws and accepted norms.

When the Republic of Macedonia takes the issue Greece has created into a purely legal fora as opposed to playing a political game, it will remove the perceived (read propagandised) substance behind the Greek political argument; that is when Greece will lose all of its international support and the matter becomes quite black and white for all of the international community and all of those decision makers who seem to have been misled by political, rather than legal, arguments.

[makedonin]

Why should a project not be legitime in any way?

Because no one has the right to nagotiate the Identity of the people and the name of the State.

Not anyone from the Government, nor any individual on his own accord.

The problem is that someone from the previous Government (comunists) did entered the name dispute nagotiations.
Now others are trying to find their way out, but don't know how to do that.

[Bill77]

I can't help but question who's interest is Goran serving. Macedonia, himself, Greece ???? a few times you comment in Macedonian some thing similer to "bog ke mu plati" but am not convinced they are genuine feelings. It is possible your Greek friend is saying something similor against us in his Greek threads, which could be all atempts to appease any people that may have doughts about you. Like the posts above say, who gives anyone the right to nagotiate the Identity of the people and the name of the State.

Now i have issues whith this proposal you posted,

Quote " 4. The members of the Macedonian state-nations (citizens of the Republic of Macedonia) will be named as "Macedonians (MK)" The members of the Macedonian cultural nation will be named as "ethnic Macedonians". A clear differentiation to the Greek Macedonians is given, which identify themselves primarily as Greeks.

Does this include the Macedonians in egej to call them selves Greek?


" 6. An independent expert committee (Macedonian, Greek and international experts named by the UN) will be set up by the United Nations to discuss historical issues like the extended Macedonian question, to evaluate them in a scientific manner and define results and recommendations, which have to be recognized by both parties officially. The United Nations define the formation of the international members within this independent expert committee and monitor their work permanently. The members of the Macedonian and Greek side will be named by their countries. As a result of their findings, the expert committee will clarify the different parts of the History of Macedonia by claiming which one is a Greek part and which one belongs to the FYR Macedonia. Furthermore, the relationship between the present Macedonia and the antique Macedonia has to be evaluated as following:


a. Of what kind were the antique Macedonia and the antique Macedonians?


b. Of what kind are the present Macedonia and the present Macedonians?


c. What is the relationship between the antique Macedonia and the antique Macedonians and the present Macedonia and the present Macedonians?"

Do you think Greece would want the truth exposed? has this not already been sugested where Greece refused? why do we Macedonians have to be interegated and probed to see if we have relationship with the Antique Macedonians? It would only be fair if it was eaqualy discussed, historical issues like the extended Greek question, to evaluate them in a scientific manner and define results. After all they claim Macedonia is Greek so lets expose, not only there relationship with Antique Macedonia but the Antique Hellenes aswell?




"7. Generally, the FYR Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic agree that the Antique Macedonia is not identical with the present Macedonia. Furthermore they agree that a solution of the name issue has to be assumed from the present Macedonia. A possible partial identity of the present Macedonia with the Antique Macedonia will remain unaffected and has to be clarified in pt. 6."

Once we agree with point 7, point 6 will never happen and we can forget about point 6 and this will remain in history forever. Admiting it is not only lieing, but dangerous.




"9. Until the expert committee does not define a different final agreement, the FYR Macedonia won't raise an objection towards the Hellenic Republic if they refer to the Antique Macedonia."

are they going to want it gift wraped aswell? seriously, what is your agenda?




"12. The FYR Macedonia will not claim territorial claims on the Greek region of Macedonia, neither on the Greek part of the Macedonian History and Culture."


come on, what ever Macedonian history and culture there is in the Greek part is Macedonian. You can't change or agree against what it is.



This proposal stinks and is suicide for Macedonia and Macedonians. It wants us to lie and admit, Modern Macedonia has no relation to ancient and the Antique rights would be given to Greece. This leaves it open and gives Greece reason for Teritorial claims in future.

[TajnataKniga]

isnt veliki a serbian word?

the airport, the highway, the statues, what else?

[Rogi]

So then what about Veligden (Easter). Based on your understanding, that is a Serbian word, right?

Except the Serbs have a different word for it.

[Jankovska]

isnt veliki a serbian word?

the airport, the highway, the statues, what else?

FYI it isn't. Maybe you should learn the Macedonian language better

Veliki means Great, like Aleksandar the Great, Great Britain etc. Not Big which is Golem, but great. It;s a pure Macedonian word. Veligden comes from Velik den and you have them split into Veliki Petok, Velika Sabota i Velika nedela ili Veligden. Very simple, nothing to do with Serbia. In Serbia Veliki means big, in Macedonia it means Great. They may have copied it from us

[TajnataKniga]

im not sure, im not an expert on slavic languages. regardless everything is interconnected and derived from macedonian. you are probably right veliki could be a macedonian word.

[TajnataKniga]

thanks

FYI it isn't. Maybe you should learn the Macedonian language better

Veliki means Great, like Aleksandar the Great, Great Britain etc. Not Big which is Golem, but great. It;s a pure Macedonian word. Veligden comes from Velik den and you have them split into Veliki Petok, Velika Sabota i Velika nedela ili Veligden. Very simple, nothing to do with Serbia

thanks for the clarification jankovska, my macedonian is not even close to basic.

and fyi, it was a question not a statement.

[Jankovska]

thanks for the clarification jankovska, my macedonian is not even close to basic.

and fyi, it was a question not a statement.

Good.......

[Prolet]

im not sure, im not an expert on slavic languages. regardless everything is interconnected and derived from macedonian. you are probably right veliki could be a macedonian word.

Tajnata Kniga, Velika means Great this is not Ico Najdovski's program where he opened up a hot line for people to ring up and give their two cents worth about what language the name comes from, there are Macedonian Ladies called Velika aswell its a Macedonian name.

Do you think that the Czechs,Slovaks,Poles,Russians,Ukrainians use the word veliki?? Why would you mention the world Slavic when referring to our language?

[Risto the Great]

As an example, Vesna is a name I associate with the RoMacedonia. Whilst it has strong roots in Macedonian, I don't think I have ever met anybody from Egej with that name. But Velika is all over Egej.

[Pelister]

Someone recently said to me that the Macedonians will change their name and extinguish their nationality to join the E.U, because at the stroke of a pen (the moment the Macedonian join the
E.U) the valuations of all real estate in Macedonia will basically quadruple.

So there are powerful economic interests and greed pushing us to extinguish our nationality.

[Dimko-piperkata]

The name alone was never an issue

Risto Stefov
January 31, 2010

As much as I want to get away from discussing the so-called "name dispute" between Greece and Macedonia I am again drawn into it by "the Macedonian preoccupation" with this Greek-invented issue.

First let me say that there is no "name dispute" between Greece and Macedonia. The name "Macedonia" belongs to the Macedonian people and there can be no question about that. The problem here is that Greece has "invented" the so-called "name dispute" to divert attention from some "other issues" that it doesnīt want known, which I will talk about later.

Second, let me say that to this day I have not heard Macedonia complain about Greece using the name "Macedonia". So where is the "name dispute"?

Greece claims that the name "Macedonia" is exclusively Greek and no one except Greece has a right to use it. If that were true then why hasnīt Greece complained about other countries, the USA for example, using the name "Macedonia" for several of its towns?

What Greece means is that "it doesnīt want the country Macedonia" to use this name. But if anyone has any right to use this name then, for obvious reasons, it should be Macedonia the country!

Aside from the fact that the name Macedonia was NEVER Greek, not in prehistoric, not in ancient, not in medieval and not in modern times, then how does Greece justify the name "Macedonia" being Greek? Well in this case Greece doesnīt have to justify anything; it only has to "declare" because that is how Greece has been operating over the last two centuries, unchallenged!

You see Greece has been "allowed" to get away with all sorts of things like declaring (not justifying or proving) that Greece is a homogeneous nation and all Greeks are descendents of the ancient Greeks. In this regard Greece has been "allowed" to push the envelope to the limit, bordering on the "bizarre", without ever been asked to explain itself or justify these claims. So if Greece can claim it is a homogeneous nation of pure Greeks, descendents of the ancient Greeks, without once being challenged, then why not "declare" that the word "Macedonia" is Greek and only Greek? Who is going to dispute that?

I am willing to let that go if Greece can answer why the name "Macedonia" became "exclusively" Greek only after it discovered that the Republic of Macedonia was about to declare its independence from the Yugoslav Federation in 1991? Why didnīt Greece voice concerns in 1945 when the Republic of Macedonia became a Republic in the Yugoslav Federation by using exactly that very same name. Why the concern now?

Was it by any chance that when the Republic of Macedonia declared its independence from the Yugoslav Federation, Greece was caught by surprise and didnīt know what else to do so it "invented" the name issue?

Greece, for almost a century, has been struggling to smother the Macedonian identity living on its own soil since Greece illegally invaded, occupied and annexed Macedonian lands. Then all of a sudden an entire nation of Macedonians gained their independence just next door. Panic stricken, not knowing what to do, Greece invented a problem in hopes of putting the Macedonians on the defensive.

What if these Macedonians started to complain about how their compatriots in Greece were treated over the years? What if those who were wronged, exiled, had their citizenship taken away, had their lands and properties confiscated, families and relatives jailed, abused and murdered, what if they start complaining? We canīt have the world know about that! So, what to do? Why not then "invent" a problem for the Macedonians to focus on; like they canīt have the name "Macedonia" because that name is exclusively Greek?

If Greece suddenly assumed "the victim role" and without being provoked declared, as it is used to falsely declaring, that "Big bad Macedonia" wants to usurp their so-called "Greek name" because this nation of bad people has "territorial aspirations" towards its own non-existent northern province also called "Macedonia", then perhaps it could get some attention. Perhaps if it screamed "rape and murder" long and loud enough then someone might hear and come to its rescue.

Greece could only have done this in panic mode and without thinking because it doesnīt take a genius to figure out that (1) Greece acquired these territories that it calls its "northern province of Macedonia", which by the way did not exist as a province, illegally and by war and conquest, and (2) that these Macedonian territories never at any time belonged to any Greeks. Macedonia never belonged to the so-called ancient Greeks and Macedonia never belonged to the artificially created Modern Greeks.

Greece has successfully created a "distraction" for the Macedonian people, particularly for the Macedonian authorities, leading them to focus on non-issues like the so-called "name dispute" instead of focusing on the real problems that the Macedonian people have with Greece, that Greece is desperately trying to avoid and to cover-up.

And what may these problems be?

Well for starters not having recognized the Macedonian minority living inside Greece! Greece does not want to recognize a Macedonian minority because Greeceīs aim all along has been to "eradicate" the Macedonian identity. Why would Greece want to recognize a people which, for more than a century, it has been bent on eradicating?

In its attempt to extinguish the Macedonian identity, Greece has illegally expropriated Macedonian lands and committed many atrocities against the Macedonian people. Greece, for example, has been exiling Greek citizens because they were Macedonians and for years has been expropriating their properties and lands without compensation.

So where does Greece stand with regard to the Macedonians?

One canīt trust what Greece says; one has to observe what Greece does and how it behaves around the Macedonian issue in order to understand what is going on! Who is better qualified to give you insight into Greece regarding the Macedonian questions than a Macedonian who, as a Macedonian, has lived and experienced Greece first hand?

There is no doubt in my mind that Greeceīs aim is to eradicate the Macedonian existence once and for all. I base this fact on Greeceīs historic treatment of the Macedonians. It is not that Macedonians donīt exist it is Greeceīs adamant wish that Macedonians do not exist that gives away its attitude towards them and its long term aim to eradicate them.

Since it conceived the idea of "acquiring Macedonian lands", Greece has been fanatical in its aim to deny the Macedonian existence. That fanatical attitude has not changed from the day it acquired Macedonian lands to this day. Today when Macedonians are recognized worldwide, Greece still aggressively maintains they donīt exist. This is why I have no doubt that Greeceīs behaviour has nothing to do with the "name" and everything to do with the Macedonian identity. If Greece succeeds in removing the name from the Macedonian people it will be its first step in removing the Macedonian identity.

Again I will reiterate that there is no doubt in my mind that Greece is out to permanently destroy the Macedonian identity not only inside Greece but everywhere, including inside the Republic of Macedonia.

And now to discuss the reason why I was drawn into this embroilment!

Every Macedonian by now should have realized that Greece doesnīt care about the name "Macedonia". It never did since 1913 when it acquired Macedonian lands right up until 1991 when the Republic of Macedonia declared its independence. Also, if Macedonians have been paying attention they would have easily discovered Greeceīs real aim, to eradicate everything that is Macedonian; the name, the language, the Macedonian ethnic identity, everything! Just as it had destroyed everything Macedonian inside Greece by denying the Macedonian existence, by changing peoplesī names, by renaming place names, by erasing Macedonian writing, by destroying Macedonian monuments, Greece is now attempting to do the same outside of Greece. By banning the Macedonian language, by assimilating the Macedonian population into the Greek fold and by exiling, torturing and murdering the non conformists, Greece has amply proven its hatred for the Macedonian people both inside its own borders and outside.

Every Macedonian by now should know that Greece does not want our name. It is bent on destroying us to the last one! Greece could have had the name Macedonia since 1913 but those who experienced life in Greece know first hand about Greeceīs hatred for that name and everything it represents. For almost a century Greece has desperately tried to bury that name in the darkness of hell. What would make anyone think now that "Greece is suddenly in love with that name?"


If it is clearly understood where Greece stands with regard to the Macedonian issue, it makes me wonder why there are so many Macedonians still preoccupied with the "name game" when they know very well that (1) Greece is not after the name. The name is only a ploy, a ruse to distract them from focusing on real issues, and (2) why are they negotiating something they know (a) Greece does not want and (b) the Macedonians CANNOT give up? What is the point of "negotiating" something we canīt possibly "sell", "trade", or "give away"?

Donīt we know how this appears to the outside world?

Negotiating our name? A name that has existed for over 3,000 years; a name passed on to us by countless generations? A name that is not ours to "negotiate", bargain with, sell, or give away? What are we thinking? If we continue to think this way of ourselves, what do we expect others to think of us? Have we paused for a moment, taken a deep breath and seriously thought about this? The very idea of even thinking such a thought is insane! Wouldnīt you agree?

Why do I think the "name" issue is a ruse to distract the Macedonian people from real issues?

Because the Macedonians, particularly those in charge, have been blinded and deafened by this "name dispute" and forgotten the real issues like:

1. The name "Macedonia" is autochthonous and belongs to the Region and to those who lived in that region the longest. Only they have the right to call themselves "ethnic Macedonians"; not the recent settlers, invaders and conquerors who acquired it by force of arms.

2. Macedonia belongs to the Macedonian people. It is the property of those who live on it, own lands on it and pay taxes. It is not the property of the overlords who from time to time occupy it by force. Greece invaded, occupied and annexed those lands in 1912, 1913 illegally just as the Ottomans did 500 years earlier. So if after 500 years the Ottomans were considered "occupiers" then that is how the Greeks also should be considered.

3. On those Macedonian lands that Greece occupies today there live Macedonians who are neither acknowledged nor have any human rights. As I said earlier, their names were forcibly changed and their language banned. This is a "real" issue that Macedonian authorities should be "negotiating" with Greece. Forget I said "negotiating"; this is an issue that Macedonian authorities should be screaming about to the world!

4. There are 28,000 refugee children, now elderly men and women with families of their own, who were exiled by Greece in 1948 during the Greek Civil War and who are still not allowed to return to Greece because they are Macedonians. This is another "real" issue about which Macedonian authorities should be screaming to the world!

5. Since Greece illegally acquired Macedonian territories it has been exiling Macedonians and illegally confiscating their properties without compensation. This is not only immoral, it is illegal. By international law, no one has the right to confiscate peoplesī properties without compensation. This is yet another "real" issue that Macedonian authorities should be PUBLICLY pursuing!

6. Since the 1920īs Greece has been "Hellenizing" Macedonia by destroying what was real and Macedonian and replacing it with "artificial Greek". The reason I call it "artificial" is because prior to the Greek occupation, be it a personīs name or toponym, it never existed by that name. I have thousands of examples of this but I will demonstrate it with a single example, something that is near and dear to me, my own village where I was born! Up until the early 1920īs my village, with a long history and tradition, was called "Oshchima". The Greeks renamed it "Trigonon". Oshchima, along with its long history and traditions, died when it was renamed; when it was given an alien, meaningless foreign name, a name to remind the people of Oshchima that they were now captives of a foreign overlord who neither had the decency nor the humanity to allow us to be who we are!

My wish, and the wish of so many thousands of Macedonians who lived and still live in Greece, is to see our own Macedonian language and Macedonian names reinstated; be it personal names or place names. This is a human rights issue that concerns thousands of Macedonians, a "real" issue that Macedonian authorities should be PUBLICLY pursuing!

7. The next time Greece claims "the name Macedonia is Greek" Macedonian authorities should be challenging that claim by asking for proof. (1) To which "Greeks" did that name and land belong? (2) How did these so-called "Greeks" acquire that name and land? (3) When did these so-called "Greeks" acquire the name and land? And (4) what do the artificial Modern Greeks have to do with it? If the Modern Greeks have the audacity to deny the existence of the Macedonian identity, surely Macedonians have not only the right to question the validity of these "Greek" claims but also the right to challenge the Greeks about their own identity!

8. The real bargaining chip Macedonian authorities have over Greece is what Greece fears the most; losing Macedonia to the Macedonian people (or should I say "giving Macedonia back to the Macedonian people")! Greece has a primordial physiological fear over this and it shows. In spite of the reassurances that the entire world gave Greece and despite the fact that the Macedonian national flag and constitution were amended by the Republic of Macedonia, Greece still fears the Republic of Macedonia having "territorial aspirations" towards its so-called northern province also called "Macedonia". This guilt and anxiety can truly be exploited. Greece is not afraid of Macedonia or of the Macedonian people over this. Greece is afraid that some Great Power, like the United States, might some day listen to the pleas of the Macedonian people and come to their rescue. I am sure more than any other country, the United States would love to see Greece parceled up into small pieces and Greece is well aware of this! Wasnīt it Kissinger who said "get rid of Greece if you want peace in the Balkans"? I am not suggesting here that Macedonian go to war over this, because this is the only way Greece would give up the Macedonian territory it occupies, but I am suggesting that it is something that Macedonians CAN "negotiate" with Greece. For example Macedonia can keep this issue to itself, for now, if Greece abstains from vetoing its entry into International institutions, like the United Nations, under its constitutional name.

9. Speaking of entering the United Nations by its constitutional name, why "negotiate" with Greece over a non-issue when Macedonian authorities could go directly to the United Nations and challenge the legality of their entry as Dr. Igor Janev has suggested over a thousand times? Why not withdraw from the UN and re-apply with the name "Republic of Macedonia" and see what happens?

10. When the Macedonian authorities entered into "negotiation" with Greece they legitimized the non-issue and made it into an issue. If something is mine then it is mine and only mine; not yours or ours! When I begin "negotiating" over something that is clearly mine then I give the impression that it "is not really mine" and give legitimacy to the other personīs claim. This is what Macedonian authorities have done with our name and this is how it is viewed from the outside world.

The "dignified" way to end this is by admitting that "we did not know what we were getting into" before we got into the "negotiating" process with Greece and to bow out of it once and for all!

That which we inherited is not ours to squander because if we do we will be known as the generation of "greatest traitors" in Macedonian history who "willingly" sold out our inheritance; an inheritance for which our forefathers spilled blood to pass onto us and we did this willingly and voluntarily with our eyes and ears open!

We have many options open to us; let us not choose the ones which will destroy our future!

Other articles by Risto Stefov:

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles.html#stefov

http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3446

You can contact the author at [email protected]

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/139344