Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Vangelovski]

TK,

Did you know that by signing the Interim Accord Macedonia AGREED NOT to take the name problem to the ICJ? Did you read the Accord? I provided you a link to the official copy found in the UN Treaties database. As long as the Macedonian Government commits itself to the treasonous Accord, it is agreeing NOT to follow Dr Janev's advice.

[Prolet]

Vangelovski, Greece already broke the accord remember?

[Bratot]

Vangelovski, Greece already broke the accord remember?

Says who?

First, doesn't mater if we all know they did, the point is to prove that, otherwise we wouldn't be still stucked in these "negotiations".

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski, Greece already broke the accord remember?

Lets just say for arguments sake that the Accord was legitimate and that greece "broke" it, why do you keep defending it and the negotiations?

[Prolet]

Vangelovski, We are in ICJ because Greece Broke the accord, they got the best deal out of it they should be defending it and in the end they'll end up with nothing. Its downhill from here on then for them.

Gjorgje Ivanov explained it all, we are not negotiating we are discussing the name issue with Greece, there is a difference. Nikola Gruevski also said that Papandreu wants to make it clear to the world that he wants people not to be confused with Northern Greece (Egejska Makedonija) so they are working out how to separate the two names. Apparently thats the excuse he is giving and thats why he wants us to change our name.

[Soldier of Macedon]

How do you think it will be solved Prolet?

[TajnataKniga]

i hope the icj rules in our favour. but grease also claims macedonia violated article 7 or 9 re: cultural heritage.

[Prolet]

TK, Cultural Heritage?? Maybe because we changed our airport name to Aleksandar Veliki.

SOM, The longer it goes on the more momentum we gather, the only way i see it is a double formula and that is have Greece call us one name and have another to the international world, we have to pin Greece into a corner if they where to agree because they have broken every rule in negotiations/discussions with their constant threats towards us.

[goran]

CLARIFICATION and EXPLANATIONS to this project

Hello to all

let me first introduce this project and me as co-initiator:

the project was initiated by Andreas (half german, half greek) and me (full macedonian). After almost 20 years of negotiations, we thought it is time to take actions to find an alternative solution on this issue. With this project we want to achieve, that there will not be accepted any solutions, which will not lead to a sustainable stability. We think that the only name for Macedonia is Republic of Macedonia. Therefore we created this proposal.

As you can see in the proposal, a compromise is a compromise where both parties will have to step aside a bit from their current positions. Macedonia will accept a discussion on the Antique Macedonia and a not exclusive right for this name, Greece will accept the name Rep. of Macedonia for international usage and recognizie the macedonian minority in greece as a people.

Open issues can be discussed in an expert commission, where all parties wil participate.

There are no organisations or countries involved in this project, only us two. a macedonian and a greek who want to find a fair and acceptabel solutions. My major goal is to keep the constitutional name of the countrie, their people the language and the culture, which today is called Macedonia and Macedonian, as well as to motivate Greece to recognize the Macedonian minority in Greece and to guarantiee their rights.

the main issues are to show,that Greece can recognize Macedonia under this name without loosing anything. A Macedonia today, which is not greek can exist without any threat to a antique Macedonia, which from greece's point of view might be hellenic (for me it was not hellenic). Macedonia has changed thru the years. The problem of Greece is, that they are transfering the antique time to the present, without regarding the 2.000 years in between, where the Macedonians developed, especially the last 150 years. Greece has to accept, that the Macedonia today has not much to do with the antique Macedonia.

We would be very glad, if there are people who could join our project.

If you ask me, are you legitimate to do such a project: I would say clearly: YES!. Why should i not be legitimate to work for a better Macedonia to protect their goals and its name. It should be everyones obligation to do it - everyday.

We have contacted several politicians, in Germany, Macedonia, Greece and the EU. Especially the eu-politicians welcommed our proposal.

The next step would be to advice the UN negotiator Matthew Nimetz to think about our proposal, which is fair and good for both parties.

Again: this is a proposal as a basis for discussions. as a trigger for new ideas to solve this issue, i ako e namednet od grcija.

If you have any questions or recommendations, please post them here or send me a PM.

Golem pozdrav



This is the official english version of your proposal:

Proposal for a solution of the name issue between the FYR Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic


The current differences between the FYR Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic in the so-called name issue can be solved by consideration of a couple of approaches (International Laws, Right of self determination, Territorial principle, etc.). All relevant issues, which led to these differences, will be considered, reviewed, and finally concluded in a bilateral treaty between both parties.


The so-called name issue originally, does not question the name of the FYR Macedonia, it questions further aspects like the overall history of Macedonia as a whole, its chronological classification, and the identity of the people in the FYR Macedonia. In this proposal it will be differed between a Macedonia as a Greek region as part of the Hellenic Republic and the FYR Macedonia as an independent subject regarding International Laws, it will be differed personally between Greek Macedonians as part of the Greek nation and ethnic Macedonians as an independent nation and it will be differed chronological between their several parts of the complete history of Macedonia.


From our point of view the name issue between the FYR Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic is the upcoming of a new Macedonian question, which superposed the classic Macedonian question and leads to an extended Macedonian question. While the classic Macedonian question is mostly solved, the new Macedonian question considers the clarification of the material meaning of the expressions "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" related to various aspects. The solution has to base on scientific findings and the International law, and it has to be implemented by both parties and their policies.


The main recommendations for solving the extended Macedonian question and their resulting name issue are following:


1. The FYR Macedonia will be recognized by all countries, all international institutions and organisation like the United Nations Organisations, in which the FYR Macedonia is a member, under the name "Republic of Macedonia". With the recognition of the constitutional name, the provisional name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" will not be used anymore. Under this provisional name, the FYR Macedonia has become a member of the UN on 08th of April 1993.


2. In bilateral relations between the FYR Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic a different name as to pt. 1 can be used. Until a solution for this name is found, on behalf of the Hellenic Republic, the name "FYR Macedonia" will be used.


3. The definition of the attribute "Macedonian" is not exclusive for one party. To ensure a clear differentiation between both parties, a country code identification is needed, as "Macedonian (MK)" or "Macedonian (GR)". If this differentiation is not applicable, another method has to be used to assign the attribute to the relevant party.


4. The members of the Macedonian state-nations (citizens of the Republic of Macedonia) will be named as "Macedonians (MK)" The members of the Macedonian cultural nation will be named as "ethnic Macedonians". A clear differentiation to the Greek Macedonians is given, which identify themselves primarily as Greeks.


5. The language which is spoken by the ethnic Macedonians will be named "Macedonian (MK)".


6. An independent expert committee (Macedonian, Greek and international experts named by the UN) will be set up by the United Nations to discuss historical issues like the extended Macedonian question, to evaluate them in a scientific manner and define results and recommendations, which have to be recognized by both parties officially. The United Nations define the formation of the international members within this independent expert committee and monitor their work permanently. The members of the Macedonian and Greek side will be named by their countries. As a result of their findings, the expert committee will clarify the different parts of the History of Macedonia by claiming which one is a Greek part and which one belongs to the FYR Macedonia. Furthermore, the relationship between the present Macedonia and the antique Macedonia has to be evaluated as following:


a. Of what kind were the antique Macedonia and the antique Macedonians?


b. Of what kind are the present Macedonia and the present Macedonians?


c. What is the relationship between the antique Macedonia and the antique Macedonians and the present Macedonia and the present Macedonians?


7. Generally, the FYR Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic agree that the Antique Macedonia is not identical with the present Macedonia. Furthermore they agree that a solution of the name issue has to be assumed from the present Macedonia. A possible partial identity of the present Macedonia with the Antique Macedonia will remain unaffected and has to be clarified in pt. 6.


8. As long as the expert committee has not provided a final clarification for the relationship between the FYR Macedonia and the Antique Macedonia, the FYR Macedonia officially disclaims any references towards the Antique Macedonia.


9. Until the expert committee does not define a different final agreement, the FYR Macedonia won't raise an objection towards the Hellenic Republic if they refer to the Antique Macedonia.


10. The ethnic Macedonian Minority in the Hellenic Republic as such will be recognized. Elementary minority rights according to international standards will be guaranteed and ensured by the Hellenic Republic.


11. The Greek people, who live in the Greek region of Macedonia, which identify themselves due to the territorial principal as Macedonians, will be called "Greek Macedonians".


12. The FYR Macedonia will not claim territorial claims on the Greek region of Macedonia, neither on the Greek part of the Macedonian History and Culture.


The implementation of the mentioned aspects will be fulfilled by international and national policy (Media, Education, official publications, etc.) by both sides, the FYR Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic. This agreement will be stated in a treaty under international law. For coordination reasons of the implementation of this treaty under international laws and the clarification of all open issues, a common council will be founded. The same number of members of this council will be from both countries, the FYR Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic. Additionally, independent members will be part of this council as well.

A one-sided change of the name of the FYR Macedonia, like proposed in other solutions for this name issue, will not close the differences due to the extended Macedonian questions as cause for this name issue. Therefore a one-sided change of the name is inappropriate. The proposed solution is more effective and appropriate to solve the name issue. Therefore this solution provides a real alternative, which should be aimed by all parties.

[goran]

zaedno morame da go zastitime nasheto ime.

here i am. with balls and baloons

just read my post.

Whoever this bum is I wonder why he would do this to his own countrys name;



Hey Goran if you have the balls sign up on here and let's have a real debate. Not one with fixed questions for fixed answers.

[makedonin]

Hi Goran,

thanx for steping out and speak about your project.

I won't hide that my first impression when I read your project in German was repulsive. From the comments given by the readers of your Blog (site) I could see that I was not the only one. There were Greeks as well Macedonians whose reaction was the same.

I have several concerns and question about your project, which I would put to you due to our conversation.

1# Is this project of yours, some private thing that you both just decided to make?

2# Do you consider this project legitime in any way, or it is just some kind of University thing that you both decided to do?

3# Do you think that you can push your project result to be accepted in anyway by both concerned Governments?

Please take your time, and if you can, answear my questions.

PS.

What I find repulsive and serving no supportive purpose to your project goal is the reference of "FYR Macedonia". But that is just me.

[makgerman]

Goran - We the Macedonians have already made the solution and there is no need to go any further and amend our name to satisfy our Greek neighbours.

Personally, it doesn't bother me the slightest whether the ModernGreeks accept us or not.

We have done enough already and what have they given us in return? The answer is nothing

My short reply to your recommendations is:

1. Macedonia has already been recognised as Republic of Macedonia by more than 125 countries and the list is growing.
2. It doesn't bother us the slightest what the ModernGreeks call us.
3. We have always called ourselves Macedonians. We don't need the (MK) thank you. The ModernGreeks refer to themselves as "Greek" and they can keep on doing so.
4. Macedonians from Republic of Macedonia don't need the country identification (MK) to define themselves. They are already Macedonians.The Modern Greeks can refer to themselves in any way that pleases them.
5. We don't need the (MK) next to our language, thank you.
6. There are more important matters than discussing our history of your so called "independent" UN officials. They don't exist and are impossible to find. Those UN Officials can do further research into how the current Modern/Fake Greeks are related to the Pure Greeks (ie non Macedonians).
7. Whatever Point 7 means?
8. No one owns Antique Macedonia especially the ModernGreeks. Therefore the so called "Independent" UN Officials certainly have no rights in telling us who does and who doesn't.
9. The fake Greeks have begun claiming Antique Macedonia although it has been proven that the Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks. It is nothing new. We have more rights to claiming Ancient Macedonia than the Modern Greeks have!
10. It is a shame that in today's age the Macedonians in Greece are still not given the basic human rights to identify themselves as Macedonians. The racist Greek governments still exist.
11. The Modern Greeks claim everything as theirs. They were strictly Greeks until not long ago and now since Macedonia has seperated from Yugoslavia they have all of a sudden become "Greek Macedonians" Isn't that strange?
12. Macedonia has clearly outlined that it has no intention on invading Greece

Goran it is not worth doing it to please your Greek friends. If he is your frient he will accept you as what you are - Macedonian I presume!

[goran]

reply

Sure,

Macedonia has done more than greece, by far. the only thing greece is doing is demanding, nothing else....

just because they have done nothing we should not say, ok that's it, let's go home. because we are in the same boat. Macedonia wants to be member of the EU. some day maybe Greece will be forced by the EU to accept Macedonias application for membership because of their current position in the EU, bancruptcy, corruption, etc. but this day can be in 2, 5 , 10 years. until this time, Macedonia cen force other, internal problems. As you know, the albanian minority is demanding a lot as well....

Either Macedonia waits until this day comes, or Macedonia will continue to work towards a fair agreement.

A name which is other than the Republic of Macedonia should never be accepted. the UN and the other institutions has to recognize Macedonia under this name as well.

still, Greece is our neighbour. Should we build a wall or rather try to explain them on and on, that they were mis-informed by their state about Macedonia and the macedonian people.

Goran - We the Macedonians have already made the solution and there is no need to go any further and amend our name to satisfy our Greek neighbours.

Personally, it doesn't bother me the slightest whether the ModernGreeks accept us or not.

We have done enough already and what have they given us in return? The answer is nothing

My answer to your recommendations is:

1. Macedonia has already been recognised as Republic of Macedonia by more than 125 countries and the list is growing.
   1. 11

[makedonin]

Well said makgerman.

I would add to your statement that UN have shot it's own legs when they inforced this nagotiations according to Greek proposal.

It is basic human right to self determine. Identity can't be nagotiated by anyone, it is personal and solely given right to any individual and people to decide for them selfs.

So with other words, by keeping the nagotiations, we just state that we ain't certain of our identity.

As for the Greek claim that we are any dangere to their districts of Macedonia (west, central Macedonia and east Macedonia and Thracia districts), well the absurdity of that is self appering.

Botom line, the Greeks are not offering anything in return anyways.

[makedonin]

Either Macedonia waits until this day comes, or Macedonia will continue to work towards a fair agreement.

It is more than wise, that Macedonia look to it's Diaspora. It also has to streighten it's economic relations in the East, speak Russia, China, maybe even India. So waiting and redirecting of it's current economic politics is needed.

Even for Europe, it is obvious that they try to get to China and Russia. The Global Market is moving East. And for that, we don't need EU.

That would lift the GPD and economy will be better, thus the people will quickly forget EU. No one was even thinking to go in EU or anywhere else, where the good salaries were there.

Give them money, and they will dump EU. That is for sure.