Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[George S.]

Greece is waiting on Macedonia to concede.I think both sides are waiting neither side is giving anything away.All the more for the talks to be cancelled once & for all.Can people envisage having to bargain for your identity.You are who you are & Greece should accept it & live with it.The fact is Greece can't accept it it has become paranoid about it
to the extent that it is not going to compromise on anything & it fears the little country who can more & more.The stability of the whole balkan region is affected because Greece does not bargain with anything.It wan'ts Macedonia to compromise.
Greece saying that Macedonia implies territorial claims is wrong.Greece has a Province named
Macedonia.Whereas The Republic of Macedonia Is a countries name.They are two different things.Also The name Republic of Macedonia is registered throughout the world since 1945 & it is worlwide recognised with anything Macedonian.Greece should not have any problem with that Macedonia is not monopolising the name BUT Greeece wan'ts to monopolise the name & not have anyone use it.A compromise on the name would give Greece a blank cheque to do what it want's it knows that Macedonia is blocking the way.

[julie]

Greece is waiting on Macedonia to concede.I think both sides are waiting neither side is giving anything away.All the more for the talks to be cancelled once & for all.Can people envisage having to bargain for your identity.You are who you are & Greece should accept it & live with it.The fact is Greece can't accept it it has become paranoid about it
to the extent that it is not going to compromise on anything & it fears the little country who can more & more.The stability of the whole balkan region is affected because Greece does not bargain with anything.It wan'ts Macedonia to compromise.

My sentiments exactly.
It wants Macedonia to compromise you say bratot.
Greece - definition Compromise - in regards to Macedonia - give up and accept their ideologies and beliefs that we don't exist.

[Soldier of Macedon]

.............Posselt earlier asked for mitigation of the wording used in the resolution, which includes too much accusations towards Macedonia when referring to bilateral good neighborly relations, since "it is not the only country responsible".

It is not responsible at all. How are we responsible, for merely existing?

"The two countries have already agreed on the name. However, its use is causing problems. Nevertheless, the current spirit provides the opportunity for a solution", he added.

And this Greek clown Hadjimarkov knows this how? What is the name agreed upon? Idiot.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Your not the only person that has family or history in that region. You cannot claim copyright on that area. Simple.

What a ridiculous assertion. Greek-speaking families aren’t the only people that have a history in the region of Attica and the Peloponnese, in fact not too long ago they were in the minority, but that doesn't stop today's 'Hellenes' claiming a 'copyright' on that area. At least in Macedonia the Macedonians were the majority in most places (and still are in many) before the wars that you animals brought in our lands. The Macedonians, my people, can, will and do claim Macedonia, and we will never share what is truly Macedonian with any of the theives that neighbour us.

Im just saying that this racist propaganda against Greek ppl is not going to work.

Racist propaganda against Greek people? Macedonians just want to live as Macedonians, and we don't prevent Greeks living as Greeks, animals and racists from your country are responsible for these problems, who cannot stop themselves from denying another people's right to exist. The racist propaganda stems from one side, yours, you racist.

We never had problems during the days of yugoslavia...or does that not tell you something.

What does it tell you? That so long as Macedonia is a region in another country (like it is in Greece and Bulgaria) you will recognize the Macedonian language and ethnicity, as the Greek state did? You don't even know what you're rambling on about, you are trying to dictate the terms of existence to another people, you do not have this right, go and live your lives you racists, and let the Macedonians live theirs.

If your stories are true...all I can say is that you cant blame a whole country for a couple of freaks.

If they are true? The lady went out of her way to explain the suffering her family underwent at the hands of racists from your pathetic little Neohellenic cult, and that is your response to her, "if" her stories were true? If that isn't enough racist denial of what you animals have done, the below is.

Genocide...yeah..ok.

It's only a matter of time before you become more open with your racist insults, time and again we see it with you people who arrive here pretending to be moderates and 'friends' only to try and push your racist propaganda through at our forums and deny the existence of Macedonian history, so, we've just been cleansed of your racist stench....yeah...ok.

[Soldier of Macedon]

To my fellow Macedonians who voted in the above poll, I am a little disappointed that while 12 of you have seen it fit to choose the last option, none of you have provided a realistic alternative with regard to future relations with Greece, the relation between the Macedonians in ROG and the Macedonians in the ROM, the ties that have been, are being and were to be established between Macedonians on both sides of the border that would encourage more interaction and understanding, etc. Come on guys, forget about the EU and NATO, if the bi-lateral option is not accepted, what would happen to the above? Macedonia and Greece will ingore each other completely and severe all ties? What would be the consequences, not just for the Macedonian state but for the Macedonian people in the region? I hope some of you will make the effort to provide a relevant response.

[George S.]

This is the ultimatum Macedonia should send to the Eu,Nato,Un,either we be admitted on the first requirements that Macedonia met.Without Greek manipulations or we don't want to join any of their organizations we will survive without them from the people that support us.Regarding Name changes etc that should never come into the equation as that is automatic destruction of our identity.As Macedonians we respect all the other countries identity.We should be allowed our dignity the right to use our name.There has never been a parrallel example where on country is forcing another to change their name for political purposes.As a Nation we have a right to exist under our chosen name why should we modify our name for our enemies.If you wan't us to change our name we don't want to join the EU or any fascist organization as that's what they are.

[George S.]

Greece is not like any other Democratic country.I can honestly say thatGreece want's to destroy us Macedonians so that we totally don't exist.If it really wanted to help us it should have let us join Nato,Eu.Un with the constitutional name.It even provided us with a temporary nonsensical name FYROM.Does anyone think that Greece will change or compromise in it's position i would say never because it will never stop.Greece is hell bent on destroying us.Some people feel blinded & think that Greece is allowing us the option to choose.A compromise is not an option it's like shooting yourself with a gun.Greece has never said that it will allow Macedonia a safe passage through the nato or EU as a matter of fact it has reneged on a promise interim accord.So can we afford to be friendly & trusting of a country that want's to destroy us.THe answer is NO.We can only take the high ground as anywhere else spells danger & disaster for Macedonia.
Can we afford to lose anymore than we have.The answer is emphatically NO we can't.
Can Macedonia make it on her own yes it CAN!Were a little country we have nothing to offer & very little to gain.NO to negotiations,No to Name change,No to joining the EU because they are in cohoots with Greece

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks GeorgeS, for not answering a single point I raised above. Everybody talks about what shouldn't happen, how about those that voted for the last option reveal what they think will happen regarding the same points?

[Bill77]

To my fellow Macedonians who voted in the above poll, I am a little disappointed that while 12 of you have seen it fit to choose the last option, none of you have provided a realistic alternative with regard to future relations with Greece, the relation between the Macedonians in ROG and the Macedonians in the ROM, the ties that have been, are being and were to be established between Macedonians on both sides of the border that would encourage more interaction and understanding, etc. Come on guys, forget about the EU and NATO, if the bi-lateral option is not accepted, what would happen to the above? Macedonia and Greece will ingore each other completely and severe all ties? What would be the consequences, not just for the Macedonian state but for the Macedonian people in the region? I hope some of you will make the effort to provide a relevant response.

A) "Future relations with Greece" i am just being realistic. There will never be Good relation Between the two. Because what Greece expects will never happen and they will never change. So why loose sleep over the relation.

B) "Relations between Macedonians in ROM and ROG" well we must put all our eforts in strengthening this rather than spending our energy with ROG relations. The interaction between the two Macedonian regions is very minimal, mainly due to ROG supression of there Ethnic Macedonians.

Now SOM you might say, "well we already know this but whats the alternative or plan". The answer to this is? world awareness. Curently all our energy, time, money is spent on proving to Greeks who we are and Who Alexander was. Check every forum and thats all we read about. Greeks will never understand or acept it. We are barking up the wrong tree. its all the Human right organisations, world Governments, media, That needs to hear over and over again. Awareness will not happen over night. But it will eventualy as long as we keep on promoting it. This would be more productive. Now i am not anti EU or Nato entry, But many Macedonians seem to be preoccupied with it, so are the Greeks for that matter and are holding our entry chances as hostage thinking its the, be all and end all for us, which we know its not true.

i apoligise if i misunderstood what you are asking for SOM

[Soldier of Macedon]

i apoligise if i misunderstood what you are asking for SOM

No problem Bill. Perhaps I should have worded the poll differently to make it easier for people to give a reply with some detail, as at the moment it would seem that most don't have any ideas about going forward if their decision is accepted.

The interaction between the two Macedonian regions is very minimal, mainly due to ROG supression of there Ethnic Macedonians.

I agree that awareness should be a goal, but it should be a goal with or without a bi-lateral agreement. If the bi-lateral agreement is not accepted, Macedonia needs to have an alternative plan in place which will ensure that the Macedonians in Greece are not further alienated, and that will be difficult should ties be severed between Macedonia and Greece. I am yet to see a realistic proposal suggested by anybody about what will result in the case that this happens, and how we should conduct ourselves going forward in the common interest of all Macedonians.

Alternatively, what if we did accept a bi-lateral agreement, what would be the pros and cons?

[Risto the Great]

If a bi-lateral agreement was reached, and was viewed as unacceptable and treason. Then it would only be viewed as such by Macedonians, not by the RoM or RoG Governments that made the decision. Your question is a shocker SoM, I am still not sure what you are asking.

But if we now look at the impact of severing ties politically between the 2 countries, then we will see nothing different to exactly what is going on now. In contrast, by accepting a bi-lateral agreement we will drop another rung in the ladder in terms of acceptance and mutual recognition. It will be fatal. I am already of aware of strategies to mitigate this damage and feel that they are best not broadcast publicly.

[Bill77]

Bill77, I agree that awareness should be a goal, but it should be a goal with or without a bi-lateral agreement. If the bi-lateral agreement is not accepted, Macedonia needs to have an alternative plan in place which will ensure that the Macedonians in Greece are not further alienated, and that will be difficult should ties be severed between Macedonia and Greece. I am yet to see a realistic proposal suggested by anybody about what will result in the case that this happens, and how we should conduct ourselves going forward in the common interest of all Macedonians.

Alternatively, what if we did accept a bi-lateral agreement, what would be the pros and cons?

Now i am starting to be aware of what you are getting at. (my Fault)

A)"Macedonia needs to have an alternative plan in place which will ensure that the Macedonians in Greece are not further alienated"

Unfortunatley its out of our hands. What i mean by our, is all the Macedonians except the ones who are Citizens in Agean Macedonia. The most we on the outside can do is as i said im my earlier post, promote awareness. Its a good question and very important one SOM. My opinion is regardless if there is or not a a bi-lateral agreement, Nothing will change. Therfor, the situation will remain Status quo initialy, But with the Human Rights Wach Dogs onto Greece, in the long run, conditions will improve. Well we can only Hope.

B)" How we should conduct ourselves going forward in the common interest of all Macedonians"

stay commited to the EU guidelines they set. Its important that we show them that we are not fake and we are determined to maintain The Democratic and Human Right values not just in our own country, but around the world. My opinion again, Is EU need us more than we need EU. I don't know that much about the Lisbon treaty, but from my understanding, in that treaty it stipulates EU expansion which they want the whole Balkans in it. I could be wrong.

C) "Alternatively, what if we did accept a bi-lateral agreement, what would be the pros and cons?"

Well this is hard for me to answer till i know what the agreement will be. Cheers.

[julie]

What a ridiculous assertion. Greek-speaking families aren’t the only people that have a history in the region of Attica and the Peloponnese, in fact not too long ago they were in the minority, but that doesn't stop today's 'Hellenes' claiming a 'copyright' on that area. At least in Macedonia the Macedonians were the majority in most places (and still are in many) before the wars that you animals brought in our lands. The Macedonians, my people, can, will and do claim Macedonia, and we will never share what is truly Macedonian with any of the theives that neighbour us.

Racist propaganda against Greek people? Macedonians just want to live as Macedonians, and we don't prevent Greeks living as Greeks, animals and racists from your country are responsible for these problems, who cannot stop themselves from denying another people's right to exist. The racist propaganda stems from one side, yours, you racist.

What does it tell you? That so long as Macedonia is a region in another country (like it is in Greece and Bulgaria) you will recognize the Macedonian language and ethnicity, as the Greek state did? You don't even know what you're rambling on about, you are trying to dictate the terms of existence to another people, you do not have this right, go and live your lives you racists, and let the Macedonians live theirs.

If they are true? The lady went out of her way to explain the suffering her family underwent at the hands of racists from your pathetic little Neohellenic cult, and that is your response to her, "if" her stories were true? If that isn't enough racist denial of what you animals have done, the below is.

It's only a matter of time before you become more open with your racist insults, time and again we see it with you people who arrive here pretending to be moderates and 'friends' only to try and push your racist propaganda through at our forums and deny the existence of Macedonian history, so, we've just been cleansed of your racist stench....yeah...ok.

Soldier of Macedon, cheers

[George S.]

Sorry sOM i was merely stating my view onUnacceptable and treason. ***Please explain what should be done if that is the last option.
THis is your one Acceptable, but only if Macedonia requires a bi-lateral name change of Greece in turn I agree with RTG that any acceptance of a compromise no matter how small will cut us down further.To think that Greece will accept a bilateral name at this stage is nonsensical because Greece doesnot have to negotiate anything.You shoulunderstand that Greece accuses Macedonia of stealing the name,irrendist claims,stealing history.Greece's claims are crystal clear they will not deviate.
Question for you SOM why do we have to sell ourselves short,we don't have to.
I don't want bilateral names etc just to appease Greece or the EU because that's what we'll be doing.We need to take a strong stance & tell the Big BUlly GReece NO means NO.
I hope i have answered your question.

[makedonche]

future relations with greece - who cares
relations with Macedonians on either side - need to be strengthened by all macedonians including the diaspora.
the situation for macedonians in greece will not change drastically from current status.
Strengthen the ROM first then seek unity progressively for all other macedonians.